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<P>Donovan says:</P>
<P>"Or how about going after the UI for<BR>skipping out on taxes on parking permits and being in<BR>the wrong zoning district? I doubt it."<BR></P>
<P>I've read many comments made by Mr. Arnold regarding the equal application of taxes. I stay out of this whole NSA debate business, because I believe if I don't know enough about something I should keep my mouth shut. </P>
<P>But...I do think that an institution such as UI should have certain exceptions to the rule, as they are most likely the oldest organization in town (as UI was founded in 1889, a year before Idaho was even it's own state), and are most likely the largest employer in our fair community. Tremendous revenue is also brought to our city because of the influx of students each year, not to mention conferences and events, such as Life on Wheels, Vandal Friday, athletic events, etc. All (in my opinion) positive events for our community. Can we say the same about the institutions you are defending, Mr. Arnold? How many local people does NSA employ?</P>
<P>Just a thought.</P>
<P>JC<BR></P></DIV><BR><BR><BR>*~*The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes, but in having new eyes.*~*
<DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>----Original Message Follows----<BR>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005@yahoo.com><BR>To: J Ford <privatejf32@hotmail.com>, vision2020@moscow.com<BR>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doing Kai's work for him<BR>Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT)<BR><BR>J writes,<BR><BR>"I could care less if they were this church or that<BR>one"<BR><BR>Come on! You really expect us to believe you really<BR>care about what other churches and non-profits are<BR>doing? Are you going after Girl Scouts of America for<BR>not paying taxes on their cookies (I really like the<BR>mint ones best)? Or how about going after the UI for<BR>skipping out on taxes on parking permits and being in<BR>the wrong zoning district? I doubt it.<BR><BR>You and a handful of others on here have done nothing<BR>but make part-time/full-time jobs out of looking for<BR>things that Christ Church
and NSA have done wrong.<BR>Even to the point of causing vandalism! And no I am<BR>not going to paw through the V2020 archives to prove<BR>my point.<BR><BR>I am not saying that I am not guilty of bigotry<BR>against NSA and Christ Church. Of course I am. I<BR>disagree with many of their teachings. But I am not<BR>BLINDED with rage and hatred. To judge all people at<BR>NSA and Christ Church the same without knowing them is<BR>as bigoted and as foul as judging all members of the<BR>Mormon Church, all Catholics, all Jews, or all Muslims<BR>the same based on what their religious leaders preach.<BR>They are all individuals that deserve to be treated as<BR>such like any other member of the community.<BR><BR>I may not regard Doug Wilson as a man I would attend<BR>church with. However, members of Christ Church are not<BR>keying my car, vandalizing my property, littering on<BR>my sidewalk, letting
their dogs lose on my garbage<BR>cans, playing loud music in the middle of the night<BR>when I am trying to sleep, or blowing cigarette smoke<BR>through my living room window. In effect, they do not<BR>bother me nearly as much as many other people in this<BR>community.<BR><BR>Much ado has been made about the comments of Doug<BR>Wilson. I ask, WHO CARES? It is absolutely ridiculous<BR>how people want to destroy the lives of anyone who so<BR>much as buys a cup of coffee from Brucer's or says<BR>"Hi" to Paul Kimmell. Why? I ask. Is your hatred and<BR>boredom run that deep? Can I not buy a sandwich from<BR>Co-Op and coffee from Brucers to go with it without<BR>being branded a liberal or a Kirker?<BR><BR>Now people are saying NSA and CC are not even donating<BR>back to the community or that it is not enough???<BR><BR>THAT IS BS! Who are you to say that donating blood<BR>(life) is not
enough? Who are YOU to say that giving<BR>people the education to stay off the streets and take<BR>care of their family is not enough? You are nobody to<BR>say such a thing. We are not privy to how much money<BR>the members of Christ Church give to charities or<BR>organizations. So to proclaim such a statement as they<BR>do not give is the height of arrogance.<BR><BR>Unless you have undeniable evidence that you<BR>contribute more money and resources then the members<BR>of Christ Church you are a hypocrite for attacking<BR>them for their donations and community service.<BR><BR>There are many things that can be said about Christ<BR>Church that we can disagree with. And trust me, I do!<BR>Most of us do. But lying about Christ Church or NSA to<BR>make others hate them for what they are NOT doing is<BR>wrong. To spend huge amount of resources dividing our<BR>community over the religious
beliefs of any group of<BR>people is wrong, pointless, and destructive to our<BR>community.<BR><BR>Please stop dividing our community over religion. This<BR>has gone too far. No church can stand up to the level<BR>of criticism and standards that are placed on NSA and<BR>Christ Church at this point. The community would never<BR>agree on any single religion.<BR><BR>I welcome debate about the teachings of CC, but in a<BR>respectful and productive manner. Not one that rips<BR>our community apart. No revenge against any Church is<BR>worth this much hatred and destruction of the<BR>community. Moscow deserves better.<BR><BR>Take Care,<BR><BR>Donovan J Arnold<BR><BR><BR>Mr. Ted;<BR><BR>You state, correctly in my opinion, that profit<BR>organizations that pay<BR>taxes<BR>is a way for them to help support the community that<BR>they are supported<BR>by.<BR>Non-profits such as churches, etc. usually
also give<BR>back to the<BR>community<BR>by way of charity benefits/donations, openings,<BR>gallary shows, and in<BR>the<BR>case of churches - especially in this community - they<BR>give back to the<BR>community by way of assistance to the poor and/or<BR>needy in ways that<BR>far<BR>out-weigh what taxes some pay...such as food/clothing<BR>banks, energy<BR>assistance, gas assistance, day care, education, and<BR>so on.<BR><BR>Christ Church, on the other hand, does not take part<BR>in any of those<BR>activities. Oh, sure they "volunteer" their building<BR>two/three times a<BR>year<BR>for the blood bank, but so do other places such as the<BR>MSD, other<BR>churches,<BR>and so on. Christ Church has refused to take part in<BR>the food bank<BR>simply<BR>because the food bank accepts federal monies and<BR>foods. But neither do<BR>they<BR>have one of their own open
to the public. Rather,<BR>they help the people<BR>in<BR>their church THEY feel are in need. I am not<BR>down-playing that, I'm<BR>just<BR>stating a fact. It is not, however, without a lecture<BR>and demand of<BR>attending or at least reading books on how to better<BR>manage your<BR>family's<BR>finances so you don't get into a position of being<BR>needy again. No, I<BR>am<BR>not saying that is totally a bad thing either; what I<BR>am saying is that<BR>there are circumstances that can not be helped and<BR>being called a<BR>"slacker"<BR>by people you turn to for help - does not help.<BR><BR>Restricting the expansion of a church owned business<BR>that first sneaks<BR>into<BR>down town and THEN applies for permits needs to be<BR>examined and is a<BR>good<BR>thing and the responsible thing to do. It was my<BR>impression that
the<BR>church<BR>should be able to hold itself up to the light and be<BR>clean. CC can not<BR>do<BR>that when they continue to impose themselves into<BR>areas they are not<BR>allowed<BR>and may not be welcomed (such as residential areas<BR>that are not zoned<BR>for<BR>ANY kind of business much less a school or college.)<BR><BR>I could care less if they were this church or that one<BR>- if it is doing<BR>something behind the scenes and then crying "foul"<BR>when caught - they<BR>deserve to be held up for public comment and<BR>discipline. THAT is what<BR>is<BR>going on with CC, despite what some people would have<BR>the community<BR>believe.<BR>--- J Ford <privatejf32@hotmail.com> wrote:<BR><BR>> Mr. Ted;<BR>><BR>> You state, correctly in my opinion, that profit<BR>> organizations that pay taxes<BR>> is a way for them to help support the community
that<BR>> they are supported by.<BR>> Non-profits such as churches, etc. usually also give<BR>> back to the community<BR>> by way of charity benefits/donations, openings,<BR>> gallary shows, and in the<BR>> case of churches - especially in this community -<BR>> they give back to the<BR>> community by way of assistance to the poor and/or<BR>> needy in ways that far<BR>> out-weigh what taxes some pay...such as<BR>> food/clothing banks, energy<BR>> assistance, gas assistance, day care, education, and<BR>> so on.<BR>><BR>> Christ Church, on the other hand, does not take part<BR>> in any of those<BR>> activities. Oh, sure they "volunteer" their<BR>> building two/three times a year<BR>> for the blood bank, but so do other places such as<BR>> the MSD, other churches,<BR>> and so on. Christ Church has refused to
take part<BR>> in the food bank simply<BR>> because the food bank accepts federal monies and<BR>> foods. But neither do they<BR>> have one of their own open to the public. Rather,<BR>> they help the people in<BR>> their church THEY feel are in need. I am not<BR>> down-playing that, I'm just<BR>> stating a fact. It is not, however, without a<BR>> lecture and demand of<BR>> attending or at least reading books on how to better<BR>> manage your family's<BR>> finances so you don't get into a position of being<BR>> needy again. No, I am<BR>> not saying that is totally a bad thing either; what<BR>> I am saying is that<BR>> there are circumstances that can not be helped and<BR>> being called a "slacker"<BR>> by people you turn to for help - does not help.<BR>><BR>> Restricting the
expansion of a church owned business<BR>> that first sneaks into<BR>> down town and THEN applies for permits needs to be<BR>> examined and is a good<BR>> thing and the responsible thing to do. It was my<BR>> impression that the church<BR>> should be able to hold itself up to the light and be<BR>> clean. CC can not do<BR>> that when they continue to impose themselves into<BR>> areas they are not allowed<BR>> and may not be welcomed (such as residential areas<BR>> that are not zoned for<BR>> ANY kind of business much less a school or college.)<BR>><BR>> I could care less if they were this church or that<BR>> one - if it is doing<BR>> something behind the scenes and then crying "foul"<BR>> when caught - they<BR>> deserve to be held up for public comment and<BR>> discipline. THAT is what is<BR>>
going on with CC, despite what some people would<BR>> have the community believe.<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>> >From: tbertruss@aol.com<BR>> >To: curley@turbonet.com, editor@lataheagle.com,<BR>> vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doing Kai's work for him<BR>> >Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:47:39 -0400<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >Mike et. al.<BR>> ><BR>> >Thanks for your clarification about property<BR>> taxation in Moscow. Perhaps<BR>> >the tax exempt status of NSA is a separate legal<BR>> issue from the CBD zoning<BR>> >code. But nonetheless I know of property tax<BR>> paying citizens in Moscow who<BR>> >view the expansion of tax exempt entities in the<BR>> downtown core, which does<BR>> >feature some rather expensive property
(for<BR>> Moscow), as a cause for<BR>> >concern. The expansion of such entities means<BR>> other property tax paying<BR>> >citizens in effect pay for certain publicly funded<BR>> services that the tax<BR>> >exempt entities are not paying for.<BR>> ><BR>> >I think the logic of this involves the idea that a<BR>> tax exempt entity is<BR>> >doing some "good" for the community that somehow<BR>> offsets the fact they are<BR>> >not paying property tax. You listed museums, art<BR>> galleries and public<BR>> >offices. There may be disagreement on the "good"<BR>> some of these entities do<BR>> >that justifies their tax exemption, but the<BR>> assumption is made they are<BR>> >doing a "good" which offsets the fact they are not<BR>> paying property tax.<BR>> ><BR>> >The
tax exempt status of religious entities has<BR>> traditionally been viewed,<BR>> >I think, with this kind of logic in mind. Religion<BR>> is not a profit<BR>> >oriented business, but an institution that provides<BR>> for an important human<BR>> >need, thus the tax exemption. Of course the tax<BR>> exempt status of many<BR>> >churches in the USA is very controversial with the<BR>> political activism<BR>> >inherent in their conduct, political activity which<BR>> is not supposed to be<BR>> >happening with the granting of their tax exemption<BR>> as a religious entity.<BR>> ><BR>> >If you have studied this issue, you know that in<BR>> some cities in the USA<BR>> >there have been restrictions placed upon how much<BR>> property can be placed<BR>> >into tax exempt status due to
association with a<BR>> religion. I think in part<BR>> >this is just simple economics. The cities cannot<BR>> afford to place a large<BR>> >bulk of valuable property into a property tax<BR>> exempt status.<BR>> ><BR>> >Moscow may not have had to face such a problem, but<BR>> we do not know the<BR>> >future.<BR>> ><BR>> >Thanks for your input.<BR>> ><BR>> >Ted Moffett<BR>> ><BR>> >-----Original Message-----<BR>> >From: Michael Curley <curley@turbonet.com><BR>> >To: editor@lataheagle.com; vision2020@moscow.com;<BR>> Tbertruss@aol.com<BR>> >Sent: Mon, 23 May 2005 14:20:32 -0700<BR>> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Doing Kai's work for him<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >Ted and Kai:<BR>> ><BR>> >As a PS to my prior post to Kai, I would
add:<BR>> ><BR>> >I don't think the issues have anything to do with<BR>> tax status. In<BR>> >fact NSA is income tax exempt, but the building has<BR>> been ruled to be<BR>> >taxable for Latah County property tax purposes.<BR>> >Many uses are permitted downtown (and elsewhere in<BR>> town) that are tax-<BR>> >exempt. The alternative high school is tax exempt.<BR>> Museums, art<BR>> >galleries, and public offices--all allowed<BR>> downtown--might be tax<BR>> >exempt (from both income and property taxes).<BR>> >It doesn't matter where a tax exempt entity locates<BR>> as far as taxes<BR>> >are concerned (except perhaps in the Research<BR>> Technology Office<BR>> >zone). If a public library occupies a $1 million<BR>> building, it<BR>> >doesn't matter if
it's downtown or somewhere else<BR>> in the city that it<BR>> >is legally permitted. The city "loses" (actually,<BR>> just does not<BR>> >collect) the same amount of property tax either<BR>> way. The city does<BR>> >not receive any sales tax from any entity, nor of<BR>> course, any income<BR>> >tax.<BR>> ><BR>> >Again, I do not know what was in the heart of each<BR>> Council member at<BR>> >the time the downtown zoning code was passed, but<BR>> it makes sense to<BR>> >me that the distinction between commercial schools<BR>> and other schools<BR>> >related to the "commercial" and personal<BR>> service/retail nature of<BR>> >commercial schools rather than any tax exempt<BR>> issue.<BR>> ><BR>> >Mike Curley<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>><BR>=== message
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