<HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Hi Kai,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the photography clarifications. Do you need a convex lens for a camera obscura, though? The image on the shroud is not especially clear; it's the image on negatives of pictures of the shroud that are clear. And would it not be possible to fix a dead body in such a way that it didn't sway? I hate to be gross, but one needn't suspend a body from a rope -- one could, well, nail it in place. (Man, I hate saying this so close to Easter. I'll be accused of being anti-Christian again.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, the Forbes piece isn't the only critique of Nate's methodology. Photographers 'round the country have been talking about the long history of sun prints, and etc., for the past week. Oh, and you might want to take a look at some of the Shroud/Camera Obscura websites regarding method. They account for the washing of the shroud post image-burning and the fixative issue. Not that I have a horse in this race because I don't. I also like the "it's a real but stolen burial shroud" theory. Why? Because that would be <STRONG>REALLY</STRONG> gross and thus quite in keeping with the habits and proclivities of those who actually dealt in the medieval relics trade. The toe-bones of saints? And vials of blood? Where do you think they got those? Uh-huh. No corpse was safe from their predations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All the best,</DIV> <DIV>Joan/Auntie </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: I will be playing some REM on the radio show this weekend. I hope that will satisfy your debased musical tastes.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Kai Eiselein</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 25, 2005 8:44 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] The Shroud of Hype</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Well, I stand corrected on the possibility that bleaching could have been<BR>the method, Joan. My apology.<BR><BR>However, the theory that a camera obscura could have been used to make the<BR>image has several flaws.<BR>1: A solution of silver nitrate would soak clear through the cloth, and<BR>would be identifiable by testing, as would a fixing solution. The images on<BR>the cloth, according to the Forbes article, can be removed with adhesive<BR>tape. The image would go deeper than the surface.<BR>2: If, at the time the shroud was made, there was no distortion free glass,<BR>I highly doubt that a decent convex lens could have been made to gain<BR>reasonable sharpness of the image. The photos of the shroud that I've seen<BR>show it to be reasonably so.<BR>3: The movement from a hanging corpse would blur the image, as would the<BR>slightest draft of air on the shroud itself. The exposure time would have<BR>been incredibly long, too long to keep from blurring.<BR>4: A rope to hang the corpse would have shown at least as a shadow on the<BR>shroud.<BR>5: The image would show degradation for a couple of reasons. First, I doubt<BR>there would have been a fixing agent that would last long enough in that day<BR>and age. Second, I doubt people would have understood how to archive it so<BR>that it wouldn't have faded. There are images with us today that have<BR>survived 100 years or so, but the archiving was much better. I have B/W<BR>images that are half that age that show degradation due to improper fixing,<BR>mishandling and improper archiving. To expect an image to last for several<BR>times that long is a stretch, I think.<BR>Just as an aside, I've been involved with photography nearly my entire life.<BR>Both of my grandfathers were lithographers, so I spent many happy hours<BR>messing around in a darkroom. I've been shooting professionaly since I was<BR>about 15 or 16 years old, and I shoot thousands of images a year.<BR>I'm currently archiving my families photos, some of which date to the Civil<BR>War. My camera collection dates back to the early 1900s.<BR>OK, I'm done puffing out my chest now. I just love photography and can talk<BR>about it endlessly.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Kai T. Eiselein<BR>Editor<BR>Latah Eagle<BR>521 S. Jackson St.<BR>Moscow, ID 83843<BR>(208) 882-0666 Fax (208) 882-0130<BR>editor@lataheagle.com<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR> http://www.fsr.net <BR> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>