<HTML><BODY STYLE="font:10pt verdana; border:none;"><DIV>Jenni Burns has perfectly summarized all of the reasons why, 20 years ago, I wanted to join the Marine Corps:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) The safety and comfort of knowing my place in the hierarchy;</DIV> <DIV>2) The feeling of importance, the sense of self-worth and belonging; </DIV> <DIV>3) Being part of something larger than myself; and</DIV> <DIV>4) The really cool uniform.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You think I'm joking, but I'm not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS: I wouldn't want the final responsibility for all decision made in my family. I'd prefer that blame, credit, and terrible burdens were all equally shared.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PPS: I could've made Major. I'm sure of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B> Christian Burns</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 13, 2005 1:29 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> keely emerinemix</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Cc:</B> debismith@moscow.com; Vision2020@moscow.com</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Message from a Christ Church Wife</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Hello Visionaries, this is Christian Burns' wife Jenni Burns. I just<BR>want to say that I believe my husband has a great view of what<BR>submission is-Christ is the head of the Church just as the man is the<BR>head of the wife, and Christ was servant of all. Christian and I have<BR>been married for three years and I have never been so loved and valued<BR>and served in my entire life. He values me and it heals the wounds of<BR>rejection that others have inflicted. He is a gentle and loving man<BR>whom I submit to willingly because I trust him fully with my heart<BR>knowing that he understands his responsibility as my protector.<BR><BR>We are a team and we submit ourselves to one another. He looks for my<BR>imput and holds my thoughts in high esteem. He waits to confer with<BR>me before he makes decisions and he wont move ahead until he knows<BR>that I feel safe. But as a wife I know that he is the final word and<BR>I trust him even though I might not feel like he's taking the right<BR>turn sometimes because I know that the responsibility for the outcome<BR>of our family weighs heavily upon his shoulders<BR><BR>That is my two cents, I am not a beat down wife who has no clue<BR>because I cant think for myself. Submitting to my husband has caused<BR>me to feel secure and confident in being who God has called me to be. <BR>I believe the truth is that people who have issue with the topic of<BR>submission is fear to fully trust yourself into another's ability to<BR>love or reject-but isn't that what Christ asks from us? to trust Him<BR>fully not knowing the outcome?<BR><BR>A devoted wife, Jenni Burns<BR><BR>ps. Chris has read all the responses and will respond when he has time.<BR><BR><BR>On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:42:58 -0800, keely emerinemix <kjajmix1@msn.com> wrote:<BR>> Christian Burns needs to avail himself of some good Biblical teaching on the<BR>> issue of submission, headship and hierarchy, although I'm afraid he'll be<BR>> sorely disappointed that the privilege of maleness is a result of the Fall<BR>> and not God's original intention for humankind. It seems to have worked out<BR>> so well for him, and of course that's the measure of all things -- how well<BR>> it works for us, others be damned.<BR>> <BR>> Which is the Biblical point of submission. Believers are to submit to one<BR>> another, period. That means going out for Chinese with my friend when it's<BR>> her preference, even if I want Mexican, because she's more important to me<BR>> than my love of carne asada. The bigger picture: it means concern for<BR>> everyone around me, knowing that their Biblical submission will result in<BR>> concern for me, too. And in this case, it means that a husband who would<BR>> see his wife in agony because of a church situation and yet still claim male<BR>> privilege to stand his ground is being grossly unloving and unBiblical and<BR>> is unworthy of defense by a brother in the Lord. I submit to my husband --<BR>> and he to me -- not because of his maleness, but because of his humanness,<BR>> just as I would submit to everyone else around me. The church is not an old<BR>> boys network -- or at least that wasn't the intention -- and the "suck it up<BR>> and submit, sister" bit is galling.<BR>> <BR>> And by the way, Mr. Burns, I'm sure Martin Luther would be amused at your<BR>> stern rebuke about God never rewarding a spirit of division. It's good to<BR>> separate from the toxic things in life by proclaiming truth, which is a<BR>> spirit of devotion to Christ. I can't help but think that more devotion to<BR>> Him would result in a church that looks radically different from what you<BR>> appear to be used to, although it'd sure be a lot less fun for the guys . .<BR>> .<BR>> <BR>> your local Biblical feminist and submissive wife, sister, friend and<BR>> neighbor,<BR>> <BR>> keely emerine mix<BR>> <BR>> .<BR>> <BR>> From: debismith@moscow.com<BR>> To: Vision2020@moscowcom<BR>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Message from a Christ Church Wife<BR>> Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 00:06:52 -0800<BR>> <BR>> OK, I have now seen something much more offensive than spitting or "one<BR>> nostril<BR>> blowing". Christian burns left me needing shower or three. A wife's<BR>> calling, like it or<BR>> not, is supporting her husband? A mandate from God to submit? My husband was<BR>> rolling on the floor laughing!!!!! My fully functional, self-supporting,<BR>> adult children let<BR>> me know this bozo needs some therapy!! (Though out of Moscow, they both<BR>> subscribe to v2020). Christian "Burns" indeed!!! What a piece of idiocy!!<BR>> In the spirit<BR>> of charity, however, I want "Christian " to know that whatever blows his<BR>> skirt up is fine<BR>> by me.....<BR>> Debi<BR>> <BR>> Dear ChristChurch Wife,<BR>> <BR>> I hear what you are saying. I don't know Doug Wilson, never met him. I<BR>> do not doubt how you feel.<BR>> <BR>> I just wanted to offer some thoughts that I had while reading your<BR>> post. I am speaking as a Christian to another Christian, I know this<BR>> will sound insensitive to most people.<BR>> <BR>> First of all I wanted to say how sorry I am for the state of your<BR>> marriage. You and your husband lack unity. The goal of marriage is<BR>> intimacy, and you have this huge wedge between you.<BR>> <BR>> I have been a part of a church with a strong leader that has hurt<BR>> people, friends of mine. Caused offence and they took the bait of the<BR>> enemy and left the church. It was hard to witness, it didn't have to<BR>> go down like it did. People harbor bitterness and it gives a place for<BR>> the enemy to thrive in their lives and family. My heart breaks for<BR>> them. Some have come through all right, others are rotting from the<BR>> inside out.<BR>> <BR>> I have also been part of churches with weak leaders. They have a whole<BR>> other set of issues. I have seen families destroyed because people<BR>> were not held accountable for sin.<BR>> <BR>> My point is that you have a mandate from God as a wife and mother. It<BR>> is not to convince your husband that he is wrong in how he is leading<BR>> your family. Your calling whether you like it or not is to support<BR>> your husband. Submit to him as the Church is to submit to Christ. Your<BR>> husband is called to submit himself to Christ.<BR>> <BR>> If you continue to press for your family to leave by pointing out the<BR>> faults of those in your church, you will destroy your family, not save<BR>> it. I know that you might disagree with that statement but I would<BR>> challenge you to look in scripture.<BR>> <BR>> My wife thinks that your focus needs to me coming into unity with your<BR>> husband, not trying to get him to heed your words. Let him lead,<BR>> support him.<BR>> <BR>> I am also going to mention your children. I don't know how old they<BR>> are or how many you have. But if they feel that bitterness in you<BR>> towards others, it will effect them in a bad way.<BR>> <BR>> Are you going outside of your husbands covering and getting together<BR>> with others to share your concerns about the church? Stop it, resolve<BR>> that God has placed your family where it is and that He never rewards<BR>> a spirit of division.<BR>> <BR>> If you want to talk to my wife further about her thoughts, email me<BR>> and I will give you her cell phone number. She said that you can talk<BR>> to her more about your situation.<BR>> <BR>> And I may be ridiculed for posting this, but I really felt that I needed to.<BR>> <BR>> Christian Burns<BR>> <BR>> On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:22:01 -0800 (PST), ChristChurch Wife<BR>> <christchurchwife@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>> > Dear Visionaries,<BR>> ><BR>> > I am a Christ Church wife. Of the many of things I could write, I<BR>> decided<BR>> > in the end that what I’m about to write is the most important. I<BR>> realize<BR>> > there’s no reason why you should trust an anonymous posting like<BR>> mine but<BR>> > it's my hope that somehow you'll decide to read it anyway.<BR>> ><BR>> > It’s amazing how God has been so merciful to Christ Church/Trinity<BR>> members<BR>> > through this forum. Many of you have been such a comfort to me and you<BR>> > don’t even know it. It’s hard to belong to a church whose<BR>> pastor treats<BR>> > people the way Doug Wilson does, especially those who oppose him<BR>> publicly.<BR>> > No, it’s not hard, I take that back. It’s horrible.<BR>> It’s become a<BR>> > nightmare. It’s shame and outrage and grief that no amount of<BR>> tears can<BR>> > wash away. Part of me wants to write a thousand more words but I<BR>> won’t<BR>> > waste your time. Why? Because of the glaring question that logically<BR>> > follows: â€Å"Then why don’t you leave that church?†I'm<BR>> working on it as<BR>> > hard as I can. Some day I will get out but when I leave I refuse to go<BR>> > alone. I will be taking my family with me. I will not allow my marriage<BR>> to<BR>> > be destroyed or my children split apart in the process. Slowly and<BR>> > consistently my husband has begun to heed the wo! rds I speak to him<BR>> > regarding Christ Church. The day is coming when his eyes will be fully<BR>> open<BR>> > and his faith will lead the way. That is the day we’ll leave. I<BR>> believe<BR>> > that with all my heart. It's coming. But even then, the road to<BR>> recovery<BR>> > will be long. That's okay. I'm not deceived. My marriage will survive<BR>> and<BR>> > we'll be fine again someday. Nobody said that only husbands are<BR>> responsible<BR>> > to protect their families. Wives are called to do the same. Mine is also<BR>> a<BR>> > rescue and recovery mission and you, on this forum, have been an<BR>> incredible<BR>> > blessing in this long, difficult process.<BR>> ><BR>> > My reason for posting today is because I want to say thank you With all<BR>> my<BR>> > heart I thank you for how you do your best to help open the eyes of<BR>> Christ<BR>> > Church/Trinity people. (I dislike that word "Kirkers.") Thank you for the<BR>> > insight and careful observations you've brought to issue after issue<BR>> > concerning Christ Church. I especially appreciate how determined you are<BR>> in<BR>> > your resolve to speak forth. Thank you for your example of courage, for<BR>> > exposing the tactics of Doug Wilson and refuting them. For remaining<BR>> > vigilant no matter how Christ Church leaders respond to you. Thank you<BR>> for<BR>> > the humorous statements that have literally made my day so many times.<BR>> > It’s amazing how much strength one can get from humor. Thank you<BR>> for all<BR>> > the personal time you've given in posting. And most of all, thank you<BR>> for<BR>> > your compassion for Christ Church wives and children and even our<BR>> husbands<BR>> > that has comforted me time and time again. It’s been overwhelming.<BR>> ><BR>> > I've learned so much about people from Vision 2020. Your service to the<BR>> > Palouse is unquestionable. People who don't even know me care about me<BR>> and<BR>> > in their own way have tried to help me. My mind has been stretched. My<BR>> > world has perspectives it never had before. I’ve gained more<BR>> understanding<BR>> > and compassion for others in ways that have made me a far better person.<BR>> I<BR>> > don't have to agree with everything written on a post to be able to say<BR>> > thank you for writing it. I see in you a true desire to make the Palouse<BR>> a<BR>> > better place to live. I see individuals trying and one by one<BR>> it’s<BR>> > working. Thank you. Thank you with all my heart for what you’ve<BR>> done for<BR>> > me as a person and Christian.<BR>> ><BR>> > If I may, I would like to say a special thanks to Tom Hansen for his "Not<BR>> on<BR>> > the Palouse" site. God only knows how many people have been spared the<BR>> > grief I've known because of it. For their lives sake, I thank you.<BR>> ><BR>> > Because the Daily News, understandably, will not accept anonymous letters<BR>> > I’d also like to publicly thank Vera White for her brave column.<BR>> She has<BR>> > withstood the vehemence of Wilson's world for years and done it with<BR>> > remarkable grace. She never ceases to amaze me with her lion's heart.<BR>> Vera's<BR>> > example of courage and integrity in journalism has inspired me more than<BR>> > she’ll ever know. Even if I don't agree with every word she says,<BR>> she's<BR>> > my hero. Thank you, Vera. Thank you forever.<BR>> ><BR>> > Thank you, Vision 2020, for allowing me to post this.<BR>> ><BR>> > With deepest gratitude and respect,<BR>> > A Christ Church wife<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > ________________________________<BR>> > Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> > _____________________________________________________<BR>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> > http://www.fsr.net<BR>> > mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ><BR>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> <BR>> _____________________________________________________<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>> <BR>> _____________________________________________________<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>> <BR>> _____________________________________________________<BR>> List services made available by First Step Internet,<BR>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.<BR>> http://www.fsr.net<BR>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________<BR>List services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <BR> http://www.fsr.net <BR> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href='http://explorer.msncom'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>