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<DIV><FONT size=4>
<P class=MsoNormal>Stig writes:</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>If you wanted to build a nice wooded fence in
your yard </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>And applied for a permit and it was granted.
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>would you, should you, Have to tear it down after it was built.
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>Just because someone in the city goofed.
</FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>They told you it was ok to make it 6 ft when 5
ft was the limit. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>I am just wondering? You've already paid for the
fence. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>NSA might argue that they sincerely
asked but were given the wrong information by the City of Moscow about zoning
requirements, and therefore they should not have to suffer the
consequences of their expensive but illegal acts, but should now be allowed to
continue their illegal acts.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>This defense is called
<EM>Detrimental Reliance.</EM></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>This doctrine <EM><FONT
size=5><STRONG>may sometimes</STRONG></FONT></EM> work as a defense for a naive
defendant in a very complex matter where reliance was demonstrably clear and
innocent. However, detrimental reliance is seldom successful as a
defense in the kinds of matters of which we are discussing. This is
usually because the "ignorance of the law is no excuse" doctrine rules; it is
the responsibility of all to determine what the law is and how it applies to
them. This is especially true if the violator had/has legal counsel who
should have been able to tell them the requirements of the law. If legal
counsel makes a mistake, the cost of correcting that mistake is his/her
liability, not the taxpayers.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>The classic cases all of us know
about is <STRONG><FONT size=5>where a taxpayer receives initial advice from the
IRS (even written) that turns out to be wrong,</FONT></STRONG> and then the IRS
brings actions to collect the tax due because of the error. The taxpayer
is stuck even though they innocently <EM>de</EM></FONT></FONT><FONT size=3><FONT
size=4><EM>trimentally relied</EM> upon the initial IRS advice. [In one
experiment using some simple scenarios, a group of CPA researchers found that
the IRS gave wrong or incomplete advice in over 90% of the calls made to
them!]</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>The detrimental reliance defense
also will not work if:</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>1. There was an
initial intent to deceive by the violator -- like not fully revealing the facts
of the situation or knowing what the law was but hoping to get a wrong or
permissive answer from some ill-informed or sympathetic
official.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>2. There
was any (even very, very minimal) collusion between the violator and
one or more city officials.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>As I have hinted at before, if the facts in this case find
the sunshine, there are going to be a lot of unhappy, angry people.
If, Stig, you really meant:</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3>If the NSA or anyone is guilty of half of your
charges, they should pay. </FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>you will be one of those especially
angry. You might even want to start/support another
recall.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>Although, the complainants in this
matter are not part of those thought of as the "Intoleristas", but are instead
evangelical Christian men (many of whose sexist, homophobic,
anti-secular views I, for one, find abhorrent), the "Intoleristas" have
known about the apparent permit violations by NSA for quite sometime.
(Your assumption that all the required permits were applied for by NSA in this
case is incorrect.) There are reasons why no action was taken, for example
by myself: but not because it was thought that the matter was not serious,
but rather because of the real lack of faith in certain City of Moscow
employees/elected officials and the cost of pursuing such an action against
persons whose demonstrated regard for the truth, even sworn under oath in
the name of their alleged and allegedly worshiped god, fails to exceed the
minimum standard. Think: covenantal dishonesty, political
dishonesty.</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4>A satisfied refurbished Gemeinhardt
user,</FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3></FONT> </P></FONT>
<P class=MsoNormal> --</FONT>--- Original Message ----- </P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=citizenx@rock.com href="mailto:citizenx@rock.com">stigmatta x</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:24
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] inclusive
justice</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Mr. Hanson, </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I believe that all violators of law deserve to be punished.
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I believe that in this country those charged with a crime
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Don't you? </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Can you not extend that simple proposition to include </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Violations of zoning codes? </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Has there been a legal hearing on this matter? </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>If you wanted to build a nice wooded fence in your yard
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal>And applied for a permit and it was granted. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>would you,
should you, Have to tear it down after it was built. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Just because someone in the city goofed. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>They told you it was ok to make it 6 ft when 5 ft was the
limit. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I am just wondering? You've already paid for the fence.
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Look don't get me wrong, religious kooks get me too. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The religious right is destroying conservatism. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I have no love for the NSA and I am not a NSA stooge. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I however have much less desire to see socialism run amok.
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I only posed the inclusive scenario, </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>because I
truly believe that if, it was a leftist operation </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>there would virtually be nonexistent opposition on this
board. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>If the NSA or anyone is guilty of half of your charges,
they should pay. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>I supported the recall petition when good citizens got
together to bring down </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The corrupt county commissioners a few years ago. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal>The NSA is no exception to the law. </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN><SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes">
</SPAN>Citizen x </P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Following what's right, not the sheep. </P></DIV>
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