<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word"><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=GENERATOR><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY lang=EN-US vLink=blue link=blue bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ron,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You have again begged the question and assumed as true what
you posture as giving proof for. (Also, See C. S. Pierce: "The
Fixation of Belief", especially the Method of Tenacity.) But,
unfortunately, that is probably the best we can expect from you.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, perhaps you can explain the relationship between your
statements:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"First, the love I have
for God is a sincere response to His mercy towards me."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"The Christian belief
concerning this has nothing to do with any limitation on God’s part. It has to
do with His <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">love/mercy."</SPAN></I></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN face="Verdana" <FONT><FONT
size=4></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN face="Verdana" <FONT><FONT size=4>and those who
have recently suffered your alleged god's <EM><FONT color=#ff0000
size=6><STRONG>love/mercy</STRONG></FONT></EM>, namely the victims of the recent
tsunami: the over 150,000 who have perished, those injured and maimed,
those who will no longer have the daily love and companionship, love, earning
potential, etc. of the perished, and the millions whose lives will be adversely
impacted by this disaster for years to come, etc.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN face="Verdana" <FONT><FONT
size=4></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN face="Verdana" <FONT><FONT size=4><BR>Art Deco (Wayne A.
Fox)<BR><A href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A
title=ron_smith@md7.com href="mailto:ron_smith@md7.com">Ron Smith</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:56
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on
one of today's headlines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Quite a long post. I
don’t have the time to answer all of these issues, but I did find a few things
of note where I think Mr. Fox misconstrues the Christian belief of
ransom/imputation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“I
see giving demanded, slavish love to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak that
it/she/he/they cannot operate and judge objectively without that "love as
a ransom payment" as a pathetic, sick, (and grossly insulting to a powerful,
beneficent god, if one exists) belief.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">First, the love I have
for God is a sincere response to His mercy towards me. There is nothing
“slavish” about it. I am a willing servant. Secondly, the issue is not whether
God can or “cannot operate and judge” without a ransom. He most certainly can,
though I praise Him that He does not. The Christian belief concerning this has
nothing to do with any limitation on God’s part. It has to do with His <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">love/mercy.</SPAN></I> This is what “God is Love”
means. He had every right to give up on the human race for their sinfulness, but
He sent His Son to suffer on the behalf of His covenant
children.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This may be difficult
to grasp these days because the idea of covenants is all but lost. There is a
little of it left though. For instance, if one of my sons broke one of Mr. Fox’s
windows, he would think nothing of demanding payment from <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">me</SPAN></I> – and rightly so. Although <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">I</SPAN></I> didn’t break the window, I still
willingly bear the responsibility because I love my son and do not want Him to
be at the mercy (or lack thereof) of Mr. Fox.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lastly, I, being on the
receiving end of God’s mercy, think He has made His message very clear. I
recognize that this is subjective, but the “Getting to Heaven for Dummies” book
as Mr. Fox stated, is called the Gospels. They are very straightforward.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Repent from your sin
(this requires your acknowledgement that you have sin in the first
place).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Luke
13:3<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"I
tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise
perish.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Believe that Christ’s
obedience trumps your disobedience.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">John
3:16<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"For
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes
in Him shall not perish, but have eternal
life.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is the simple
message of the gospel.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mark
9:24 "I do believe; help my unbelief."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Art Deco<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 10, 2005 3:01
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Vision 2020<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on
one of today's headlines</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Melynda, Ron,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Even statements
like:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The square root of blue recrystalizes
sodomy."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">can have emotional meaning and appear to have
cognitive meaning and other kinds of meaning, if people use them often
enough.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To answer directly your question and request for an
example: common examples used daily like the one above, where people claim
the statements are true, but can find no way to demonstrate their truth (or
clearly explain their meaning without contradicting themselves
and having to invoke the concept
"mysteries"):</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"God is love."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Christ is God."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">However, the truth of statements
like:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"My house is located in
Idaho."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Leather soles do not last
forever."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The probably aren't any unicorns in Laird
Park."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"There exist many different infinite Abelian
groups."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">are testable.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">So are almost all the claims in elementary physics
books, for example. We are successfully able to send persons to
and retrieve them from the moon, find tumors with CAT scans, and establish
property boundaries in Latah County by depending on the
</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of these statements. Therefore, those
who are of the opinion of that the </SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of certain kinds of statements are not
testable by repeated observations are living in a fantasy
world.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Whatever the meaning of any statement, except for
esthetic/emotive purposes, if the statement cannot be understood in such a way
that its truth, falsity, or probability can determined and applied, then 'tis
folly to rely upon it,' whatever it means, however comforting/reassuring it is,
or whatever fantasies it helps to fulfill. While you and I may share a set
of ethical values, I do not need the unverifiable alleged approval/instruction
of some alleged god(s) or other superstitious beings/forces to persuade me to
act in ways I deem ethical. Of course I have and do make ethical mistakes,
but I try to find them and to correct them by observation, education, and
reconsideration.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Further</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">, another test for the truth or falsity of a group of
statements is logical consistency. If a group of statements contain a
contradiction (a falsity), then until I see an example of a true contradiction,
I will continue to disbelieve/reject such combinations of
statements.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I repeat</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">
</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=6><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt">the dilemma for the thoughtful
believer</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">: If our conduct and the attainment of an
orgasmic eternal life is so important, if some alleged god(s) really love
us and therefore want us to achieve/earn this alleged eternal life, then why the
hell are the rules of achievement so fraught with contradictions, confusions,
disagreements, disclarities, hatred/war generating elements,
etc.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Why is determining truth of the rules for
behaving as some alleged god(s) desire toward our fellow creatures and thus
attaining eternal bliss not as easy as determining the rules for building a
bridge or successfully worming a dog (both of such actions would seem to be much
less important than a attaining blissful eternal life), if some powerful,
omnibenevolent god(s) are in charge? You would expect this/these very
powerful, beneficent god(s) would be able to write or cause to be written a
clear <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">Getting to Heaven for
Dummies</FONT></I></EM> manual, instead of the raft of alleged, confusing,
contradictory, fantastic, war/hatred generating holy books claiming to have
<EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">the truth</FONT></I></EM> various people now
believe.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From an earlier
post:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Ron Smith says:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ being
God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are saying
my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right. That would be
silly."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Unintentionally perhaps, Ron has pointed to something
that might be of significance to many of us:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In Ron's faith and many other faiths, the only way to
some alleged ecstatic, eternal life is by believing and affirming certain
statements as true.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">My guess is that for many of the religious, an
ecstatic, eternal life is the main event, allegedly infinitely paling anything
and everything that occurs here on earth.
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Isn't it a bit perplexing that an alleged
omnipowerful, omnibeneficient God would present such difficult, confusing, yea
contradictory instructions for achieving/earning such a coveted goal.
Wouldn't the hypothesis that this alleged God is either indifferent or
diabolically sadistic be more consistent with the evidence at
hand?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Even a periodic, straightforward, unequivocal,
unmistakable demonstration of her/his/its existence/wishes/intentions would
certainly be a more effective way to market its/his/her
program.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> Instead we are left with a welter of confusing
(the Virgin Mary allegedly appears on a grilled cheese sandwich), contradictory,
indecipherable, intransigent, hate and war generating claims with not only
rancorous disagreement, but worse yet, without no method, so far discoverable,
to find the truth. Again, this seems to support the hypotheses of either
[1] an alleged god(s) of vastly different properties than those proclaimed by
his/her/its earthly followers or [2] no god(s) at
all.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I am sorry my blunt statements offends you,
because I believe that you and many other believers are thoughtful, ethical
persons, but in the spirit of the citation from <EM><I><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Mark</FONT></I></EM> previously given: for me, good
works are very important. Conversely, I see giving demanded, slavish love
to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak that it/she/he/they cannot operate and
judge objectively without that "love as a ransom payment" as a pathetic,
sick, (and grossly insulting to a powerful, beneficent god, if
one exists) belief.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">There whole thing sounds like a story made up by an
ineffective/incompetent parent who can not earn love/respect but seeks to coerce
it by lies, fairy tales, and brutal threats.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From: "Melynda Huskey" <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:mghuskey@msn.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mghuskey@msn.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To: <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:35
AM</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of
today's headlines</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">> In pursuance of Moffett's First Axiom, I'll wade
in here (but I promise to <BR>> keep it reasonably brief!).<BR>> <BR>>
Wayne writes:<BR>> <BR>> "When searching for "the truth" it may be useful
to understand that some <BR>> statements are neither true nor false.
For example:<BR>> <BR>> " 'The square root of blue recrystalizes sodomy.'
"<BR>> <BR>> "Just because words can be strung together in an apparently
syntactically <BR>> correct sentence doesn't mean the sentence has a
comprehensible, literal, <BR>> testable meaning."<BR>> <BR>> This
example demonstrates an interesting property of language: it can be
<BR>> used to construct syntactically correct nonsense statements--thus
allowing <BR>> us to derive rules of syntax for individual languages, and
even, <BR>> potentially, basic principles about language itself.<BR>>
<BR>> Wayne goes on to say,<BR>> <BR>> "In your quest for "the truth"
you might watch out for these kind of <BR>> assertions. Religion,
philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with such <BR>> statements. These
assertions are generally recognizable by the practical <BR>> impossibility of
being neither unequivocally confirmable nor falsifiable or <BR>> for the
establishment of any significant probability of thier truth. The <BR>>
latter two cases is often especially the case."<BR>> <BR>> But here I
believe you're drawing a false conclusion, Wayne. There is a <BR>>
categorical difference between syntactically flawless nonsense sentences,
<BR>> which by their nature are not intended to contain meaning for speakers,
and <BR>> sentences which do not contain literal or testable meanings, but
which have <BR>> some contingent and deferred meaning for speakers.
Your implication, of <BR>> course, is that such statements as "In the
beginning was the Word" are <BR>> simply nonsense, on a par with your "square
root of blue," while other <BR>> statements are verifiably true--say, "You
just can't prove the existence of <BR>> God."<BR>> <BR>> As a student
of post-modern French linguistics and theory, I have to smile <BR>> at the
notion that any language at all is literal or testable. There is a
<BR>> certain naivete in the belief that some words are more literal than
others. <BR>> The free play of the signifier means that all meaning is
contingent, <BR>> endlessly dependent on a chain of connotations without any
ultimate <BR>> referents outside the system of language. What seems
quite demonstrably a <BR>> fact contained in a literally true sentence to you
is itself as subject to <BR>> slippage, incoherence, and misprision as any
prophetic utterance by Habbakuk <BR>> or Nahum.<BR>> <BR>> Secondarily,
it seems to me quite dangerous to assert that language must be <BR>> subject
to tests of literality in order to be comprehensible. Since there <BR>>
is no meaningful connection between a signifier and a signified, what can
<BR>> literality mean? Inherent in the notion of literal, testable,
language is <BR>> the premise that some kinds of experience are more "real"
than others, and <BR>> that you or I can determine the reality of another
person's experience by <BR>> comparing it to our own. I find both of
these ideas nearly impossible to <BR>> defend, owing to the circularity of
the proof, "I experienced it, therefore <BR>> it is real."<BR>> <BR>>
Hurrah for Derrida!<BR>> <BR>> Melynda Huskey<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_____________________________________________________<BR>> List services
made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the communities of
the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>>
</SPAN></FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">http://www.fsr.net</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">
<BR>> </SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">>
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>>
<BR>></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P></P>
<DIV>_____________________________________________________<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
http://www.fsr.net
<BR>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P></P>
<DIV>_____________________________________________________<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
http://www.fsr.net
<BR>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////<BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<P>
<DIV>
<HR>
</DIV>
<P></P>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=GENERATOR><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ron,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You have again begged the question. But, unfortuantely,
that is probably the best we can expect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, perhaps you can explain the relationship between your
statements:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">First, the love I have
for God is a sincere response to His mercy towards me.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Christian belief
concerning this has nothing to do with any limitation on God’s part. It has to
do with His <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">love/mercy.<FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=4></SPAN></I></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ron_smith@md7.com href="mailto:ron_smith@md7.com">Ron Smith</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:56
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on
one of today's headlines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Quite a long post. I
don’t have the time to answer all of these issues, but I did find a few things
of note where I think Mr. Fox misconstrues the Christian belief of
ransom/imputation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“I
see giving demanded, slavish love to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak
that it/she/he/they cannot operate and judge objectively without that
"love as a ransom payment" as a pathetic, sick, (and grossly insulting to a
powerful, beneficent god, if one exists)
belief.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">First, the love I
have for God is a sincere response to His mercy towards me. There is nothing
“slavish” about it. I am a willing servant. Secondly, the issue is not whether
God can or “cannot operate and judge” without a ransom. He most certainly can,
though I praise Him that He does not. The Christian belief concerning this has
nothing to do with any limitation on God’s part. It has to do with His
<I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">love/mercy.</SPAN></I> This is what “God
is Love” means. He had every right to give up on the human race for their
sinfulness, but He sent His Son to suffer on the behalf of His covenant
children.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This may be difficult
to grasp these days because the idea of covenants is all but lost. There is a
little of it left though. For instance, if one of my sons broke one of Mr.
Fox’s windows, he would think nothing of demanding payment from <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">me</SPAN></I> – and rightly so. Although <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">I</SPAN></I> didn’t break the window, I still
willingly bear the responsibility because I love my son and do not want Him to
be at the mercy (or lack thereof) of Mr. Fox.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lastly, I, being on
the receiving end of God’s mercy, think He has made His message very clear. I
recognize that this is subjective, but the “Getting to Heaven for Dummies”
book as Mr. Fox stated, is called the Gospels. They are very straightforward.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Repent from your sin
(this requires your acknowledgement that you have sin in the first
place).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Luke
13:3<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"I
tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise
perish.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Believe that Christ’s
obedience trumps your disobedience.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">John
3:16<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"For
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal
life.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is the simple
message of the gospel.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mark
9:24 "I do believe; help my unbelief."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Art Deco<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 10, 2005 3:01
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Vision
2020<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of today's
headlines</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Melynda,
Ron,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Even statements
like:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The square root of blue recrystalizes
sodomy."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">can have emotional meaning and appear to have
cognitive meaning and other kinds of meaning, if people use them often
enough.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To answer directly your question and request for an
example: common examples used daily like the one above, where people
claim the statements are true, but can find no way to demonstrate their
truth (or clearly explain their meaning without contradicting themselves
and having to invoke the concept
"mysteries"):</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"God is love."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Christ is God."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">However, the truth of statements
like:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"My house is located in
Idaho."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Leather soles do not last
forever."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The probably aren't any unicorns in Laird
Park."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"There exist many different infinite Abelian
groups."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">are testable.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">So are almost all the claims in elementary physics
books, for example. We are successfully able to send persons
to and retrieve them from the moon, find tumors with CAT scans, and
establish property boundaries in Latah County by depending on the
</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of these statements. Therefore, those
who are of the opinion of that the </SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of certain kinds of statements are not
testable by repeated observations are living in a fantasy
world.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Whatever the meaning of any statement, except for
esthetic/emotive purposes, if the statement cannot be understood in such a way
that its truth, falsity, or probability can determined and applied, then 'tis
folly to rely upon it,' whatever it means, however comforting/reassuring it
is, or whatever fantasies it helps to fulfill. While you and I may share
a set of ethical values, I do not need the unverifiable alleged
approval/instruction of some alleged god(s) or other superstitious
beings/forces to persuade me to act in ways I deem ethical. Of course I
have and do make ethical mistakes, but I try to find them and to correct them
by observation, education, and
reconsideration.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Further</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">, another test for the truth or falsity of a group
of statements is logical consistency. If a group of statements contain a
contradiction (a falsity), then until I see an example of a true
contradiction, I will continue to disbelieve/reject such combinations of
statements.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I repeat</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">
</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=6><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt">the dilemma for the thoughtful
believer</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">: If our conduct and the attainment of an
orgasmic eternal life is so important, if some alleged god(s) really love
us and therefore want us to achieve/earn this alleged eternal life, then why
the hell are the rules of achievement so fraught with contradictions,
confusions, disagreements, disclarities, hatred/war generating elements,
etc.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Why is determining truth of the rules for
behaving as some alleged god(s) desire toward our fellow creatures and thus
attaining eternal bliss not as easy as determining the rules for building a
bridge or successfully worming a dog (both of such actions would seem to be
much less important than a attaining blissful eternal life), if some powerful,
omnibenevolent god(s) are in charge? You would expect this/these very
powerful, beneficent god(s) would be able to write or cause to be written
a clear <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">Getting to Heaven for
Dummies</FONT></I></EM> manual, instead of the raft of alleged, confusing,
contradictory, fantastic, war/hatred generating holy books claiming to
have <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">the truth</FONT></I></EM> various
people now believe.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From an earlier
post:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Ron Smith says:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ being
God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are
saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right. That
would be silly."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Unintentionally perhaps, Ron has pointed to
something that might be of significance to many of
us:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In Ron's faith and many other faiths, the only way
to some alleged ecstatic, eternal life is by believing and affirming certain
statements as true.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">My guess is that for many of the religious, an
ecstatic, eternal life is the main event, allegedly infinitely paling anything
and everything that occurs here on earth.
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Isn't it a bit perplexing that an alleged
omnipowerful, omnibeneficient God would present such difficult, confusing, yea
contradictory instructions for achieving/earning such a coveted goal.
Wouldn't the hypothesis that this alleged God is either indifferent or
diabolically sadistic be more consistent with the evidence at
hand?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Even a periodic, straightforward, unequivocal,
unmistakable demonstration of her/his/its existence/wishes/intentions would
certainly be a more effective way to market its/his/her
program.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> Instead we are left with a welter of
confusing (the Virgin Mary allegedly appears on a grilled cheese sandwich),
contradictory, indecipherable, intransigent, hate and war
generating claims with not only rancorous disagreement, but worse yet,
without no method, so far discoverable, to find the truth. Again, this
seems to support the hypotheses of either [1] an alleged god(s) of vastly
different properties than those proclaimed by his/her/its earthly followers or
[2] no god(s) at all.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I am sorry my blunt statements offends you,
because I believe that you and many other believers are thoughtful, ethical
persons, but in the spirit of the citation from <EM><I><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Mark</FONT></I></EM> previously given: for me,
good works are very important. Conversely, I see giving demanded,
slavish love to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak that it/she/he/they
cannot operate and judge objectively without that "love as a ransom
payment" as a pathetic, sick, (and grossly insulting to a powerful,
beneficent god, if one exists)
belief.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">There whole thing sounds like a story made up by an
ineffective/incompetent parent who can not earn love/respect but seeks to
coerce it by lies, fairy tales, and brutal
threats.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From: "Melynda Huskey" <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:mghuskey@msn.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mghuskey@msn.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To: <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:35
AM</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of
today's headlines</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">> In pursuance of Moffett's First Axiom, I'll
wade in here (but I promise to <BR>> keep it reasonably brief!).<BR>>
<BR>> Wayne writes:<BR>> <BR>> "When searching for "the truth" it may
be useful to understand that some <BR>> statements are neither true nor
false. For example:<BR>> <BR>> " 'The square root of blue
recrystalizes sodomy.' "<BR>> <BR>> "Just because words can be strung
together in an apparently syntactically <BR>> correct sentence doesn't mean
the sentence has a comprehensible, literal, <BR>> testable
meaning."<BR>> <BR>> This example demonstrates an interesting property
of language: it can be <BR>> used to construct syntactically correct
nonsense statements--thus allowing <BR>> us to derive rules of syntax for
individual languages, and even, <BR>> potentially, basic principles about
language itself.<BR>> <BR>> Wayne goes on to say,<BR>> <BR>> "In
your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind of <BR>>
assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with such
<BR>> statements. These assertions are generally recognizable by the
practical <BR>> impossibility of being neither unequivocally confirmable
nor falsifiable or <BR>> for the establishment of any significant
probability of thier truth. The <BR>> latter two cases is often
especially the case."<BR>> <BR>> But here I believe you're drawing a
false conclusion, Wayne. There is a <BR>> categorical difference
between syntactically flawless nonsense sentences, <BR>> which by their
nature are not intended to contain meaning for speakers, and <BR>>
sentences which do not contain literal or testable meanings, but which have
<BR>> some contingent and deferred meaning for speakers. Your
implication, of <BR>> course, is that such statements as "In the beginning
was the Word" are <BR>> simply nonsense, on a par with your "square root of
blue," while other <BR>> statements are verifiably true--say, "You just
can't prove the existence of <BR>> God."<BR>> <BR>> As a student of
post-modern French linguistics and theory, I have to smile <BR>> at the
notion that any language at all is literal or testable. There is a
<BR>> certain naivete in the belief that some words are more literal than
others. <BR>> The free play of the signifier means that all meaning
is contingent, <BR>> endlessly dependent on a chain of connotations without
any ultimate <BR>> referents outside the system of language. What
seems quite demonstrably a <BR>> fact contained in a literally true
sentence to you is itself as subject to <BR>> slippage, incoherence, and
misprision as any prophetic utterance by Habbakuk <BR>> or Nahum.<BR>>
<BR>> Secondarily, it seems to me quite dangerous to assert that language
must be <BR>> subject to tests of literality in order to be
comprehensible. Since there <BR>> is no meaningful connection between
a signifier and a signified, what can <BR>> literality mean? Inherent
in the notion of literal, testable, language is <BR>> the premise that some
kinds of experience are more "real" than others, and <BR>> that you or I
can determine the reality of another person's experience by <BR>> comparing
it to our own. I find both of these ideas nearly impossible to <BR>>
defend, owing to the circularity of the proof, "I experienced it, therefore
<BR>> it is real."<BR>> <BR>> Hurrah for Derrida!<BR>> <BR>>
Melynda Huskey<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_____________________________________________________<BR>> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>>
</SPAN></FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">http://www.fsr.net</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">
<BR>>
</SPAN></FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">>
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>>
<BR>></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_____________________________________________________<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
http://www.fsr.net
<BR>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></I></SPAN></FONT>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2523" name=GENERATOR><!--[if !mso]>
<STYLE>v\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
o\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
w\:* {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
.shape {
BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)
}
</STYLE>
<![endif]-->
<STYLE>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle19
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</STYLE>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ron,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>You have again begged the question. But, unfortuantely,
that is probably the best we can expect.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>However, perhaps you can explain the relationship between your
statements:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">First, the love I have
for God is a sincere response to His mercy towards me.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The Christian belief
concerning this has nothing to do with any limitation on God’s part. It has to
do with His <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">love/mercy.<FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=4></SPAN></I></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ron_smith@md7.com href="mailto:ron_smith@md7.com">Ron Smith</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 11, 2005 8:56
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on
one of today's headlines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Quite a long post. I
don’t have the time to answer all of these issues, but I did find a few things
of note where I think Mr. Fox misconstrues the Christian belief of
ransom/imputation.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“I
see giving demanded, slavish love to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak
that it/she/he/they cannot operate and judge objectively without that
"love as a ransom payment" as a pathetic, sick, (and grossly insulting to a
powerful, beneficent god, if one exists)
belief.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">First, the love I
have for God is a sincere response to His mercy towards me. There is nothing
“slavish” about it. I am a willing servant. Secondly, the issue is not whether
God can or “cannot operate and judge” without a ransom. He most certainly can,
though I praise Him that He does not. The Christian belief concerning this has
nothing to do with any limitation on God’s part. It has to do with His
<I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic">love/mercy.</SPAN></I> This is what “God
is Love” means. He had every right to give up on the human race for their
sinfulness, but He sent His Son to suffer on the behalf of His covenant
children.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This may be difficult
to grasp these days because the idea of covenants is all but lost. There is a
little of it left though. For instance, if one of my sons broke one of Mr.
Fox’s windows, he would think nothing of demanding payment from <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">me</SPAN></I> – and rightly so. Although <I><SPAN
style="FONT-STYLE: italic">I</SPAN></I> didn’t break the window, I still
willingly bear the responsibility because I love my son and do not want Him to
be at the mercy (or lack thereof) of Mr. Fox.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Lastly, I, being on
the receiving end of God’s mercy, think He has made His message very clear. I
recognize that this is subjective, but the “Getting to Heaven for Dummies”
book as Mr. Fox stated, is called the Gospels. They are very straightforward.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Repent from your sin
(this requires your acknowledgement that you have sin in the first
place).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Luke
13:3<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"I
tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise
perish.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Believe that Christ’s
obedience trumps your disobedience.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">John
3:16<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"For
God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever
believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal
life.”<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">This is the simple
message of the gospel.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mark
9:24 "I do believe; help my unbelief."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></I></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Art Deco<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 10, 2005 3:01
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Vision
2020<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of today's
headlines</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Melynda,
Ron,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Even statements
like:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The square root of blue recrystalizes
sodomy."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">can have emotional meaning and appear to have
cognitive meaning and other kinds of meaning, if people use them often
enough.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To answer directly your question and request for an
example: common examples used daily like the one above, where people
claim the statements are true, but can find no way to demonstrate their
truth (or clearly explain their meaning without contradicting themselves
and having to invoke the concept
"mysteries"):</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"God is love."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Christ is God."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">However, the truth of statements
like:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"My house is located in
Idaho."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Leather soles do not last
forever."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The probably aren't any unicorns in Laird
Park."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"There exist many different infinite Abelian
groups."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">are testable.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">So are almost all the claims in elementary physics
books, for example. We are successfully able to send persons
to and retrieve them from the moon, find tumors with CAT scans, and
establish property boundaries in Latah County by depending on the
</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of these statements. Therefore, those
who are of the opinion of that the </SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of certain kinds of statements are not
testable by repeated observations are living in a fantasy
world.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Whatever the meaning of any statement, except for
esthetic/emotive purposes, if the statement cannot be understood in such a way
that its truth, falsity, or probability can determined and applied, then 'tis
folly to rely upon it,' whatever it means, however comforting/reassuring it
is, or whatever fantasies it helps to fulfill. While you and I may share
a set of ethical values, I do not need the unverifiable alleged
approval/instruction of some alleged god(s) or other superstitious
beings/forces to persuade me to act in ways I deem ethical. Of course I
have and do make ethical mistakes, but I try to find them and to correct them
by observation, education, and
reconsideration.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Further</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">, another test for the truth or falsity of a group
of statements is logical consistency. If a group of statements contain a
contradiction (a falsity), then until I see an example of a true
contradiction, I will continue to disbelieve/reject such combinations of
statements.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I repeat</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">
</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=6><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt">the dilemma for the thoughtful
believer</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">: If our conduct and the attainment of an
orgasmic eternal life is so important, if some alleged god(s) really love
us and therefore want us to achieve/earn this alleged eternal life, then why
the hell are the rules of achievement so fraught with contradictions,
confusions, disagreements, disclarities, hatred/war generating elements,
etc.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Why is determining truth of the rules for
behaving as some alleged god(s) desire toward our fellow creatures and thus
attaining eternal bliss not as easy as determining the rules for building a
bridge or successfully worming a dog (both of such actions would seem to be
much less important than a attaining blissful eternal life), if some powerful,
omnibenevolent god(s) are in charge? You would expect this/these very
powerful, beneficent god(s) would be able to write or cause to be written
a clear <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">Getting to Heaven for
Dummies</FONT></I></EM> manual, instead of the raft of alleged, confusing,
contradictory, fantastic, war/hatred generating holy books claiming to
have <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">the truth</FONT></I></EM> various
people now believe.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From an earlier
post:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Ron Smith says:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ being
God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are
saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right. That
would be silly."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Unintentionally perhaps, Ron has pointed to
something that might be of significance to many of
us:</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In Ron's faith and many other faiths, the only way
to some alleged ecstatic, eternal life is by believing and affirming certain
statements as true.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">My guess is that for many of the religious, an
ecstatic, eternal life is the main event, allegedly infinitely paling anything
and everything that occurs here on earth.
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Isn't it a bit perplexing that an alleged
omnipowerful, omnibeneficient God would present such difficult, confusing, yea
contradictory instructions for achieving/earning such a coveted goal.
Wouldn't the hypothesis that this alleged God is either indifferent or
diabolically sadistic be more consistent with the evidence at
hand?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Even a periodic, straightforward, unequivocal,
unmistakable demonstration of her/his/its existence/wishes/intentions would
certainly be a more effective way to market its/his/her
program.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> Instead we are left with a welter of
confusing (the Virgin Mary allegedly appears on a grilled cheese sandwich),
contradictory, indecipherable, intransigent, hate and war
generating claims with not only rancorous disagreement, but worse yet,
without no method, so far discoverable, to find the truth. Again, this
seems to support the hypotheses of either [1] an alleged god(s) of vastly
different properties than those proclaimed by his/her/its earthly followers or
[2] no god(s) at all.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I am sorry my blunt statements offends you,
because I believe that you and many other believers are thoughtful, ethical
persons, but in the spirit of the citation from <EM><I><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Mark</FONT></I></EM> previously given: for me,
good works are very important. Conversely, I see giving demanded,
slavish love to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak that it/she/he/they
cannot operate and judge objectively without that "love as a ransom
payment" as a pathetic, sick, (and grossly insulting to a powerful,
beneficent god, if one exists)
belief.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">There whole thing sounds like a story made up by an
ineffective/incompetent parent who can not earn love/respect but seeks to
coerce it by lies, fairy tales, and brutal
threats.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">----- Original Message -----
</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From: "Melynda Huskey" <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:mghuskey@msn.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mghuskey@msn.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To: <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:35
AM</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of
today's headlines</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">> In pursuance of Moffett's First Axiom, I'll
wade in here (but I promise to <BR>> keep it reasonably brief!).<BR>>
<BR>> Wayne writes:<BR>> <BR>> "When searching for "the truth" it may
be useful to understand that some <BR>> statements are neither true nor
false. For example:<BR>> <BR>> " 'The square root of blue
recrystalizes sodomy.' "<BR>> <BR>> "Just because words can be strung
together in an apparently syntactically <BR>> correct sentence doesn't mean
the sentence has a comprehensible, literal, <BR>> testable
meaning."<BR>> <BR>> This example demonstrates an interesting property
of language: it can be <BR>> used to construct syntactically correct
nonsense statements--thus allowing <BR>> us to derive rules of syntax for
individual languages, and even, <BR>> potentially, basic principles about
language itself.<BR>> <BR>> Wayne goes on to say,<BR>> <BR>> "In
your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind of <BR>>
assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with such
<BR>> statements. These assertions are generally recognizable by the
practical <BR>> impossibility of being neither unequivocally confirmable
nor falsifiable or <BR>> for the establishment of any significant
probability of thier truth. The <BR>> latter two cases is often
especially the case."<BR>> <BR>> But here I believe you're drawing a
false conclusion, Wayne. There is a <BR>> categorical difference
between syntactically flawless nonsense sentences, <BR>> which by their
nature are not intended to contain meaning for speakers, and <BR>>
sentences which do not contain literal or testable meanings, but which have
<BR>> some contingent and deferred meaning for speakers. Your
implication, of <BR>> course, is that such statements as "In the beginning
was the Word" are <BR>> simply nonsense, on a par with your "square root of
blue," while other <BR>> statements are verifiably true--say, "You just
can't prove the existence of <BR>> God."<BR>> <BR>> As a student of
post-modern French linguistics and theory, I have to smile <BR>> at the
notion that any language at all is literal or testable. There is a
<BR>> certain naivete in the belief that some words are more literal than
others. <BR>> The free play of the signifier means that all meaning
is contingent, <BR>> endlessly dependent on a chain of connotations without
any ultimate <BR>> referents outside the system of language. What
seems quite demonstrably a <BR>> fact contained in a literally true
sentence to you is itself as subject to <BR>> slippage, incoherence, and
misprision as any prophetic utterance by Habbakuk <BR>> or Nahum.<BR>>
<BR>> Secondarily, it seems to me quite dangerous to assert that language
must be <BR>> subject to tests of literality in order to be
comprehensible. Since there <BR>> is no meaningful connection between
a signifier and a signified, what can <BR>> literality mean? Inherent
in the notion of literal, testable, language is <BR>> the premise that some
kinds of experience are more "real" than others, and <BR>> that you or I
can determine the reality of another person's experience by <BR>> comparing
it to our own. I find both of these ideas nearly impossible to <BR>>
defend, owing to the circularity of the proof, "I experienced it, therefore
<BR>> it is real."<BR>> <BR>> Hurrah for Derrida!<BR>> <BR>>
Melynda Huskey<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_____________________________________________________<BR>> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>>
</SPAN></FONT><A href="http://www.fsr.net"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">http://www.fsr.net</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">
<BR>>
</SPAN></FONT><A href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><BR><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">>
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯<BR>>
<BR>></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_____________________________________________________<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>
http://www.fsr.net
<BR>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<BR>/////////////////////////////////////////////////////<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>