<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<!--[if !mso]>
<style>
v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
.shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
</style>
<![endif]-->
<title>RE: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of today's headlines</title>
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Verdana;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.EmailStyle20
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:Arial;
color:navy;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue>
<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I admit that the argument is circular. But,
most arguments are circular (even if very broadly so) since we use the
available evidence to prove our pre-conceived ideas of truth. No one set out to
discover whether or not the scriptures are true. It is my belief that they had
already rejected their truth and <i><span style='font-style:italic'>then</span></i>
sought to invalidate them. So, our arguments tend to be originated within the
presuppositions of our worldviews and the evidence available fits nicely into
those presuppositions. The displacement of the “Pangea” via your
previous post is evidence for some scientists that the earth has been here for
billions of years. But for me, it proves scripture. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>Isaiah
40:4-5<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>“Let
every valley be lifted up,<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>And
every mountain and hill be made low;<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>And let
the rough ground become a plain,<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>And the
rugged terrain a broad valley; <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>Then
the glory of the LORD will be revealed,<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>And all
flesh will see it together;<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy;font-style:italic'>For the
mouth of the LORD has spoken."<o:p></o:p></span></font></i></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Ron Smith<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <b><span
style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Art Deco<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, January 10, 2005
7:38 AM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> Vision 2020<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [Vision2020] Gary
Larson on one of today's headlines</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'>Ron, Scott, et al,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'>Begging the question:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'><a href="http://skepdic.com/begging.html">http://skepdic.com/begging.html</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'>Another example (partial recycled from an earlier post):</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=5 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:18.0pt'>[A] The bible is true because it is the
word of god.</span></font></b></strong> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=5 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:18.0pt'> How
do you know the bible is the word of god?</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=5 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:18.0pt'> The
bible says so.</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=5 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:18.0pt'> How
do we know what the bible says is true?</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=5 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:18.0pt'>
See [A].</span></font></b></strong><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>The is a classic example of a circular argument (aka begging the
question) -- a fallacious argument form assuming as true what you are trying to
prove.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>Ron: Respond to the charge that the argument just above is
fallacious not with reassertion -- but with something other
than Christians have done it for a long time (as they believed for a long
time that the earth was flat and mental illness was caused by the possession of
demons).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>If you admit that argument is circular, just say so.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
13.5pt'><br>
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
<a href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</a></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div style='font-color:black'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:ron_smith@md7.com" title="ron_smith@md7.com">Ron Smith</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> <a
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com" title="vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> Sunday, January
09, 2005 10:42 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2
face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> RE: [Vision2020]
Gary Larson on one of today's headlines<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Mr. Dredge,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>I suppose you are entitled to your
judgement of my motives, even if you are wrong. The reason I try to convince
people of the truth (not just on this list) is not because of any insecurity I
may have. It is simply because that is exactly what my religion (i.e. Christ
Himself) tells me to do. I am attempting nothing more than to be faithful to my
beliefs and to God by giving reason for the hope that is in me.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><em><i><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>1 Peter 3:15
"...always be ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to
give an account for the hope that is in you..."</span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Verdana><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Verdana;color:navy'>Ron Smith</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabIndex=-1>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on behalf of Scott Dredge<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sun 1/9/2005 6:09 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> vision2020@moscow.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [Vision2020] Gary
Larson on one of today's headlines</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Ron,<br>
<br>
I don't think you're comfortable at all. I think<br>
you're very insecure about your religion which is why<br>
you continuously try convince everyone on this list of<br>
your piety.<br>
<br>
-Scott<br>
<br>
<br>
--- Ron Smith <ron_smith@md7.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
> "Do those of you who are young or who have children<br>
> feel comfortable with such attitudes?"<br>
> <br>
> Well, I am young (28) and I have children, and I<br>
> feel comfortable with such attitudes. But my comfort<br>
> is not found in the abilities of mankind to protect<br>
> me, or the lack thereof. My comfort is found in the<br>
> One who made mankind and has it all planned out.<br>
> <br>
> Isaiah 46:10 "... My purpose will be established,<br>
> and I will accomplish all My good pleasure."<br>
><br>
<br>
_____________________________________________________<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet,<br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>
<a href="http://www.fsr.net">http://www.fsr.net</a> <br>
<a
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</a><br>
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'>_____________________________________________________<br>
List services made available by First Step Internet, <br>
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. <br>
http://www.fsr.net
<br>
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com<br>
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>