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<DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><FONT size=4>R2P,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Your requested empirical observations for "...'tis folly to
rely upon' ...":</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>All the wars, hatred, and hardships that religious belief has
wrought today, yesterday, and through the ages.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Untestable (unverifiable) statement: See Gödel's Proof,
for one example.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Another: </FONT><FONT size=3>The future will continue to
resemble the past in predictable ways.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The above statement is relied upon us continually because, in
practicality, we have no choice. I do not think it can be proven without
[1] assuming it in someway or [2] using other unprovable statements.
It is possible, however that this view will change in the future given new
information, etc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>I certainly hope that the statement is true, at least in the
short term, but I have no way of knowing that it is so and no method except to
wait.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here's another: </FONT><FONT size=3>There are conscious
beings besides myself.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Here's some more which most likely undemostratable by
observation with any degree of reasonable probability: Statements about
minutiae which occurred in the past: </FONT><FONT size=3>My great,
great,...,great grandfather spit out a piece of walnut shell on the morning of
the year end of 3400 BC.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>The same can be said about much minutiae in the
future.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Because of the nature of empirical demonstration, truth,
rather probabilities, established by such means appears not
certain. There are always room for mistakes, ignorance, and methodology
problems. Even in logic, so-called eternal truths such as Aristotle's
Method of Testing Syllogisms have upon closer investigation turned out to be in
error.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>As far as the truth of statements about a god go, I have
pointed out below observations that would have probative value about the
existence of god(s):</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt"><STRONG>Even a periodic,
straightforward, unequivocal, unmistakable demonstration of her/his/its
existence/wishes/intentions would certainly be a more effective way to market
its/his/her program.</STRONG></SPAN><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><STRONG></STRONG></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><FONT
size=4>Even</FONT> such a demonstration would not be completely probative.
Since, if such a being existed, her/he/its powers would most likely superior
enough to ours that he/it/she could easily deceive us about its/hers/his nature
and intentions.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">The
quasi-philosophical statements I make here (many in meta-language) are not
certain. Future events, information, and philosophical investigations
may show them in error. In the mean time, I will continue to believe them
for heuristic reasons. [See my remarks about going to the moon, etc.
below.]</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR>Art Deco
(Wayne A. Fox)<BR><A
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4><FONT size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=Right2Privacy@adelphia.net
href="mailto:Right2Privacy@adelphia.net">R2Privacy</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=deco@moscow.com
href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">'Art Deco'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, January 10, 2005 3:34
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Gary Larson on
one of today's headlines</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT>,</P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Could you please provide an example of an empirical
test for your statement below? And is there any TRUTH that is by its
nature not testable?</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thank you.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">R2P </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Whatever the meaning of any statement, except for
esthetic/emotive purposes, if the statement cannot be understood in such a way
that its truth, falsity, or probability can determined and applied, then 'tis
folly to rely upon it,' whatever it means,
</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Art Deco<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, January 10, 2005 3:01
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Vision
2020<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[Vision2020] Gary Larson on one of today's headlines</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Melynda,
Ron,</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Even statements
like:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The square root of blue recrystalizes
sodomy."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">can have emotional meaning
and appear to have cognitive meaning and other kinds of meaning, if
people use them often enough.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To answer directly your question and
request for an example: common examples used daily like the one above,
where people claim the statements are true, but can find no way to
demonstrate their truth (or clearly explain their meaning without
contradicting themselves and having to invoke the concept
"mysteries"):</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"God is love."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Christ is God."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">However, the truth of statements
like:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"My house is located in
</SPAN></FONT>Idaho."</P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"Leather soles do not last
forever."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"The probably aren't any unicorns in
Laird Park."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"There exist many
different infinite Abelian groups."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">are testable.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">So are almost all the claims in
elementary physics books, for example. We are successfully
able to send persons to and retrieve them from the moon, find tumors with
CAT scans, and establish property boundaries in Latah County by depending
on the </SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of these statements. Therefore, those
who are of the opinion of that the </SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">truth</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> of certain kinds of statements are not
testable by repeated observations are living in a fantasy
world.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Whatever the meaning of any statement,
except for esthetic/emotive purposes, if the statement cannot be understood in
such a way that its truth, falsity, or probability can determined and applied,
then 'tis folly to rely upon it,' whatever it means, however
comforting/reassuring it is, or whatever fantasies it helps to fulfill.
While you and I may share a set of ethical values, I do not need the
unverifiable alleged approval/instruction of some alleged god(s) or other
superstitious beings/forces to persuade me to act in ways I deem
ethical. Of course I have and do make ethical mistakes, but I try to
find them and to correct them by observation, education, and
reconsideration.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Further</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">, another test for the truth or falsity of a group
of statements is logical consistency. If a group of statements contain a
contradiction (a falsity), then until I see an example of a true
contradiction, I will continue to disbelieve/reject such combinations of
statements.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I repeat</SPAN></FONT><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">
</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><STRONG><B><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=6><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 24pt">the dilemma for the thoughtful
believer</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">: If our conduct and the attainment of an
orgasmic eternal life is so important, if some alleged god(s) really love
us and therefore want us to achieve/earn this alleged eternal life, then why
the hell are the rules of achievement so fraught with contradictions,
confusions, disagreements, disclarities, hatred/war generating elements,
etc.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Why is determining truth of
the rules for behaving as some alleged god(s) desire toward our fellow
creatures and thus attaining eternal bliss not as easy as determining the
rules for building a bridge or successfully worming a dog (both of such
actions would seem to be much less important than a attaining blissful eternal
life), if some powerful, omnibenevolent god(s) are in charge? You would
expect this/these very powerful, beneficent god(s) would be able to write
or cause to be written a clear <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">Getting to
Heaven for Dummies</FONT></I></EM> manual, instead of the raft of alleged,
confusing, contradictory, fantastic, war/hatred generating holy books
claiming to have <EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">the truth</FONT></I></EM>
various people now believe.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From an earlier
post:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Ron Smith says:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">"I say Christ is God. You say He is not.
Christ being God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God,
you are saying my faith is wrong. Dont feel bad about it. We cant all be
right. That would be silly."</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Unintentionally perhaps, Ron has
pointed to something that might be of significance to many of
us:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">In Ron's faith and many other faiths,
the only way to some alleged ecstatic, eternal life is by believing and
affirming certain statements as true.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">My guess is that for many of the
religious, an ecstatic, eternal life is the main event, allegedly infinitely
paling anything and everything that occurs here on earth.
</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Isn't it a bit perplexing that an
alleged omnipowerful, omnibeneficient God would present such difficult,
confusing, yea contradictory instructions for achieving/earning such a coveted
goal. Wouldn't the hypothesis that this alleged God is either
indifferent or diabolically sadistic be more consistent with the evidence at
hand?</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><STRONG><B><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=5><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt">Even a periodic,
straightforward, unequivocal, unmistakable demonstration of her/his/its
existence/wishes/intentions would certainly be a more effective way to market
its/his/her program.</SPAN></FONT></B></STRONG><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"> Instead we are left with a welter of
confusing (the Virgin Mary allegedly appears on a grilled cheese sandwich),
contradictory, indecipherable, intransigent, hate and war
generating claims with not only rancorous disagreement, but worse yet,
without no method, so far discoverable, to find the truth. Again, this
seems to support the hypotheses of either [1] an alleged god(s) of vastly
different properties than those proclaimed by his/her/its earthly followers or
[2] no god(s) at all.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">I am sorry my blunt statements
offends you, because I believe that you and many other believers are
thoughtful, ethical persons, but in the spirit of the citation from
<EM><I><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mark</FONT></I></EM> previously
given: for me, good works are very important. Conversely, I see
giving demanded, slavish love to some alleged god(s) who is/are so weak that
it/she/he/they cannot operate and judge objectively without that "love
as a ransom payment" as a pathetic, sick, (and grossly insulting to a
powerful, beneficent god, if one exists)
belief.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">There whole thing sounds like a story
made up by an ineffective/incompetent parent who can not earn love/respect but
seeks to coerce it by lies, fairy tales, and brutal
threats.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">----- Original Message -----
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">From: "Melynda Huskey"
<</SPAN></FONT><A href="mailto:mghuskey@msn.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">mghuskey@msn.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">To: <</SPAN></FONT><A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com"><FONT size=4><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Vision2020@moscow.com</SPAN></FONT></A><FONT
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:35
AM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Gary Larson
on one of today's headlines</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=4><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">> In pursuance of Moffett's First
Axiom, I'll wade in here (but I promise to <BR>> keep it reasonably
brief!).<BR>> <BR>> Wayne writes:<BR>> <BR>> "When searching for
"the truth" it may be useful to understand that some <BR>> statements are
neither true nor false. For example:<BR>> <BR>> " 'The square root
of blue recrystalizes sodomy.' "<BR>> <BR>> "Just because words can be
strung together in an apparently syntactically <BR>> correct sentence
doesn't mean the sentence has a comprehensible, literal, <BR>> testable
meaning."<BR>> <BR>> This example demonstrates an interesting property
of language: it can be <BR>> used to construct syntactically correct
nonsense statements--thus allowing <BR>> us to derive rules of syntax for
individual languages, and even, <BR>> potentially, basic principles about
language itself.<BR>> <BR>> Wayne goes on to say,<BR>> <BR>> "In
your quest for "the truth" you might watch out for these kind of <BR>>
assertions. Religion, philosophy, politics, etc. are rife with such
<BR>> statements. These assertions are generally recognizable by the
practical <BR>> impossibility of being neither unequivocally confirmable
nor falsifiable or <BR>> for the establishment of any significant
probability of thier truth. The <BR>> latter two cases is often
especially the case."<BR>> <BR>> But here I believe you're drawing a
false conclusion, Wayne. There is a <BR>> categorical difference
between syntactically flawless nonsense sentences, <BR>> which by their
nature are not intended to contain meaning for speakers, and <BR>>
sentences which do not contain literal or testable meanings, but which have
<BR>> some contingent and deferred meaning for speakers. Your
implication, of <BR>> course, is that such statements as "In the beginning
was the Word" are <BR>> simply nonsense, on a par with your "square root of
blue," while other <BR>> statements are verifiably true--say, "You just
can't prove the existence of <BR>> God."<BR>> <BR>> As a student of
post-modern French linguistics and theory, I have to smile <BR>> at the
notion that any language at all is literal or testable. There is a
<BR>> certain naivete in the belief that some words are more literal than
others. <BR>> The free play of the signifier means that all meaning
is contingent, <BR>> endlessly dependent on a chain of connotations without
any ultimate <BR>> referents outside the system of language. What
seems quite demonstrably a <BR>> fact contained in a literally true
sentence to you is itself as subject to <BR>> slippage, incoherence, and
misprision as any prophetic utterance by Habbakuk <BR>> or Nahum.<BR>>
<BR>> Secondarily, it seems to me quite dangerous to assert that language
must be <BR>> subject to tests of literality in order to be
comprehensible. Since there <BR>> is no meaningful connection between
a signifier and a signified, what can <BR>> literality mean? Inherent
in the notion of literal, testable, language is <BR>> the premise that some
kinds of experience are more "real" than others, and <BR>> that you or I
can determine the reality of another person's experience by <BR>> comparing
it to our own. I find both of these ideas nearly impossible to <BR>>
defend, owing to the circularity of the proof, "I experienced it, therefore
<BR>> it is real."<BR>> <BR>> Hurrah for Derrida!<BR>> <BR>>
Melynda Huskey<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
_____________________________________________________<BR>> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR>> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
<BR>>
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