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<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>Ms. Opyr aka Paris,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>You wrote, "</FONT><FONT color=#000000>If we
could reduce all religious commandments down to 'love one another,' I have
no doubt that this would be a better world.</FONT><FONT
color=#000080>"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>Amen. Let's do it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>The only problem is, it is impossible. I have
no data to back this up, but I would speculate that religious aggression tops
the "Why can't we all just get along?" list. The commandment you cited is the
<EM>second</EM> greatest commandment according to Jesus. The <EM>first</EM>
greatest being, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH
ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND. This is the great and foremost
commandment." Matthew 22:37-38</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>Mankind will not reconcile with one another
until they have reconciled with their God.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>Ron Smith</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
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</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
on behalf of Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sun 1/2/2005 12:10 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Hi Ron,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm a fan of Flavius Josephus. In fact, I have a page of his work
(from a disassembled medieval manuscript) framed and hanging on my wall. I
collect medieval manuscript pages -- I have a whole two of them. Wish I
had more, but they're expensive and I'm no Paris Hilton. Although it has
been said that we do look alike. Ha!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The problem with your translation, below, is the use of the definite
article before the word messiah. That wouldn't have been in the
original text, just as it wasn't in the original Greek gospels of Matthew, Mark,
or Luke. Biblical Greek doesn't do definite articles. So in
Josephus, as in the synoptic gospels, Jesus was "messiah," not "the
messiah." Messiah is the Hebrew word for anointed -- christos is
the Greek word -- and what it meant to an early Jewish audience, i.e.,
the first followers of Jesus, was that they believed him to be
the king of Israel; the king of the Jews. It's not until you get
to John -- oh, that troublesome John -- that words like messiah and christos
begin to mean something more than wise, wonderful, or even superhuman; they
begin to mean direct one-to-one correspondence with God. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(BTW, inspired by you, I re-read John earlier this evening, and
it's in this gospel and this gospel alone that Jesus raises Lazarus from
the dead. In all of the other gospels, Jesus' last public act, the one
that leads directly to his crucifixion, is to throw the money-changers from the
temple. In John, his last public act is to raise Lazarus from the
dead, and that's what gets him trouble. Very
interesting; to me, anyway.) </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't deny that Jesus existed, though there's no contemporary
historical proof that he did, and Pontius Pilate apparently
didn't consider him of enough interest to record an account for Rome
of his trial and crucifixion. I also don't deny his wisdom, as evidenced
in many of the teachings attributed to him, or his near-universal
importance over the last twenty-one centuries. If we could reduce all
religious commandments down to "love one another," I have no doubt that
this would be a better world. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And if that sounds corny or cheesy or even conciliatory, you can blame it
on the fact that I *do* know who Lawrence Welk is -- and I love him! Those
bubbles! That champagne lady! That damned Irish tenor from hell, Joe
Feeny, curse him for the evil toupeed leprechaun he was. How many times
did he slaughter <EM>Danny Boy</EM>? I lost count at about 72.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Wunnerful, wunnerful,</DIV>
<DIV>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: black"><B>From:</B>
Ron Smith</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 31, 2004 2:21
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B> vision2020@moscow.com</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText59968 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>What do you think about the writings of the
first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>"<FONT color=#000000>About this time there
lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he
was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as
accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was
the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us,
Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love
him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to
life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other
marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him,
has still to this day not disappeared. </FONT>
<P><FONT
color=#000000>
- <I>Jewish Antiquities</I>, 18.3.3 §63</FONT> "</P>
<P>Happy New year to you as well, Ms Opyr.</P>
<P>Ron Smith/Billie the Goat</P>
<P>P.S. Who is Lawrence Welk? =)</P></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on behalf of Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri
12/31/2004 1:36 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[Vision2020] The Divinity of Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I think you'll find, Mr. Smith, that you are reading the first three
gospels (as many Christians do) in light of the last, John. It is
John that makes the direct claim that Jesus and God are one and the
same. The others use the terms messiah, lord, and son of God, but
the direct correspondence/equality between God and Jesus is asserted only
in John. Throughout the first three gospels, what we find is Jesus
praying to God for faith and aid; we don't find him praying to himself.
Far from being fallacious, my claims are based on simple textual
fact. The problem here is that you're reading backwards, beginning with
John and interpreting the gospels that came before it in light of John's
claims. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">All four gospels
sing loudly and in unison the same tune: "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the
Living God."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Well, no. Let's not get confused here. "Jesus is the
Christ, the Son of the living God," is not the same as saying that "Jesus is
God," as John does. There's plenty of textual scholarship to back
this up, but I fear it would be a waste of time to attach an
annotated bibliography to this message. If you believe as Dale believes,
you wouldn't read it -- too many women scholars. Nonetheless, if
you're interested, let me know.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You need to make up
your mind. Do <EM>all four </EM>of the gospels all speak to the divinity of
Jesus or just John?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Again, this has
been my point from the beginning of all this. I have sought to point out your
inconsistencies with regard to statements you made about the New
Testament. The fact that I deem these texts holy is irrelevant to this
discussion. You have made false statements about these texts and all I
have been doing is critisizing those false
statements.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>I have made up my mind, and no, they don't all speak to the
divinity of Jesus. Some speak to Jesus' status as teacher and prophet;
some as messiah; some as Christ; and John makes the final leap and tells us
that Jesus was God come to earth as man. When I say that the four
canonical gospels have one purpose and one purpose only (which is why they
were chosen for the canon while other gospels, like Thomas, were
rejected), and that purpose is to spread faith in Jesus as messiah,
as lord, and as Christ, these claims are not synonymous with the
claim that Jesus is God. Only by reading backwards from John (see
above) do you get that specific correlation.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This is so
laughable and bursting with contradiction. I say Christ is God. You say He is
not. Christ being God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not
God, you are saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all
be right. <I>That</I> would be silly.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>The world is bursting with contradiction, Mr.
Smith. Get used to it. You say that Jesus is God, and I
say that I don't believe he is. I point out to you some
contradictions in the texts on which you base your claims, but I fail to
see how that takes a sledgehammer to the cornerstone of your faith. What
do you care what I think? Dale Courtney says that I'm an atheist (which
is where this argument started, if you'll remember), and I say that my
God, the God of the Jews, is the foundation, history, and source of
your own faith, so even you should understand that I am not an
atheist. In response, you give me John 20:23, to wit, he who doesn't
have the son, doesn't have the father. From my point of view
as a practicing Jew, that's a load of hooey. It also fails to define the
word atheist.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Now, finally, you say that we can't all be right. How the
devil would you know? Are you reading backward from the Gospel of
John or the Gospel of Ron? I have to wonder because it seems to
me that in your cosmos, God can be confined to four gospels, a few
letters from Paul, and the five points of Calvin's Institutes. That
doesn't work for me. In fact, it seems to me much more likely that
God is so infinite that no single human system can contain or comprehend
him/her. We might need many systems, and each and every one
might have some small grasp on a corner of the truth. Though I am
in my personal practice a Jew, philosophically, I'm a
Unitarian-Universalist. So there you have it -- my deep dark
secret. Enjoy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>And that's it for me. Really and truly, this time. I
wish you a happy New Year, Billy the Goat, and one filled with l'hakshot,
fearless questioning. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Goodnight, sweetheart, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>And pleasant dreams to you.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Here's a wish and a prayer</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>That every dream comes true.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>And now 'till we meet again,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Adios. Au revoir. Auf
weidersehn. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Goodnight!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>PS: For some reason, I woke up with the Lawrence Welk theme song
playing in my head. My heavenly reward or a punishment for tormenting
Ron? You be the judge. </FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR
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