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<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Mr. Grier,</SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You said,
"</SPAN><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">If you
think Luke's method of taxation is so great, will you pay my plane fare to
Madison, Wisconsin, so that I might visit the county tax office so that I might
offer to pay property taxes on a farm that the Gier family no longer
owns??</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><?xml:namespace
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color=#000000 size=2></FONT><SPAN
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<DIV dir=ltr>I am not sure if that is supposed to be an argument against the
historicity of the Roman census or an argument in favor of socialism! Either
way, it puts words in my mouth (I never said "Luke's system" was great) and is
nonsensical as an argument. No one ever claimed that Joseph went to Bethlehem to
pay taxes on property in Bethlehem.</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr></SPAN><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Verdana><FONT
size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Come on, Ron, fess
up. There is no historical evidence for such a fantastic system of
taxation. And back to my very first point: Mary did not have to go
even if it were the case... She surely would have miscarried on that
donkey!</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Are you referring to
the system I described or the system you described? Your system of paying taxes
on land that is owned by someone else is surely fantastic and I would agree that
it probably never occurred. As for Mary "not having to go", and "surely
miscarrying on the donkey if she would have gone", again that is simply
speculation. Just because <EM>you </EM>can't think of a reason for a man to take
his pregnant bride-to-be on a long journey, doesn't mean therefore, that there
<EM>was</EM> no reason. And just because <EM>you</EM> have never seen a child
survive the womb after his pregnant mother takes a donkey ride, doesn't make it
impossible. Again, absence of proof is not proof to the
contrary.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">Jesus never mentions
his alleged birth in Bethlehem.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Yet another logical
fallacy. I think you meant to say that Jesus was never <EM>recorded</EM>
mentioning His alleged birth in Bethlehem. This is true. But again, just because
we have no record of Him saying it, that does not mean that he, in fact, did
not. Further, even if He in fact did <EM>not</EM> mention his
birthplace, this does not lead to the inevitable conclusion that He was not born
in Bethlehem. Once again, absence of proof is not proof to the contrary.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">The Jews had very good
reasons to reject Jesus as Messiah</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
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face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Whoa, wait a minute!
I thought Jesus never <EM>claimed</EM> to be the Messiah. If He never made that
claim, then who was rejecting what?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black">The Suffering Servant
of Isaiah was never identified as the Messiah except in one very late
commentary.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That does not make
the Isaiah passage non-Messianic any more than my commentary on the scriptures
<EM>makes</EM> them inerrant. I would agree with you that the Jews, for the most
part, missed it. They were taking spiritual truths and temporally interpreting
them. Jesus indeed came to set them free, but not from
Rome.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2><SPAN style="COLOR: black">Thanks also to Ron for
reminding us that his religion, agreeing with Roman patriarchy, would completely
disenfranchise all women of their rights.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Again, putting words
into my mouth. I never said that. My wife stays at home with our kids and home
schools them, but if she heard you say that, and if she were rude, she would
laugh in your face. As it is, she is very polite and would probably just wait
for you to leave the room before laughing at you.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2><SPAN style="COLOR: black">I leave you with a
quotation from French Bible Scholar Charles Guignebert: "It is all outside the
plane of reality....It is incredible that such an unusual and disturbing
proceeding, as the census spoken of by Luke must necessarily have been, should
have escaped all notice in Josephus...</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">I don't know and I
don't care who the French "Bible Scholar" Charles Guinbert is, but he should
check his sources as well as his reasoning. First, he, like you, seeks proof of
absence via absence of proof. This is illogical, as I am sure you recall me
mentioning like five times in this and previous emails. Secondly, Josephus
<EM>does</EM> describe the Roman census. </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000000><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">from
<STRONG>Antiquities 18.1.1 1</STRONG>
<BR><B> </B></SPAN><FONT face=Verdana><FONT size=2><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy">"</SPAN><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Quirinius</SPAN></STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">, a Roman senator who
had passed through all the other magistracies until he became consul, and one
who in other respects was very distinguished, came at this time into
<STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">Syria</SPAN></STRONG>, with a few
others, <STRONG><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">having been sent by Caesar to
be governor</SPAN></STRONG><B> </B>of that nation and to<B> </B><STRONG><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal">make an <FONT color=#000080>assessment of their
property</FONT></SPAN></STRONG><FONT
color=#000080>."</FONT></SPAN><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal dir=ltr style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2> <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<DIV dir=ltr></FONT><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2><FONT color=#000080>I will leave you with the words of
Luke 2:1-2 "Now in those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus,
</FONT><FONT color=#000080>that a census be taken of all the inhabited earth.
This was the first census taken while Quirinius was governor of
Syria."</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
face=Verdana><FONT size=2><FONT color=#000080>Ron
Smith</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
on behalf of Nick Gier<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sat 1/1/2005 12:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] Plane Fare to Wisconsin,
Ron?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Hi Ron,<BR><BR>If you think Luke's method of taxation is so great, will you
pay my plane fare to Madison, Wisconsin, so that I might visit the county tax
office so that I might offer to pay property taxes on a farm that the Gier
family no longer owns??<BR><BR>Come on, Ron, fess up. There is no
historical evidence for such a fantastic system of taxation. And
back to my very first point: Mary did not have to go even if it were the
case. I'm very happy that she stayed home in Nazareth and gave birth to a
son who gave us such a profound message of love, compassion, and peace.
She surely would have miscarried on that donkey!<BR><BR>Luke states that one
must return to his own city (<I>idios</I>) and whenever Jesus refers to the
"<I>idios </I>of his father" it is always Nazareth in Galilee. (See Jn.
4:44; Matt. 13:57; Mk. 6:4) Jesus never mentions his alleged birth in
Bethlehem. That would have been a very important fact if he really claimed
to be the Messiah. <BR><BR>The Jews had very good reasons to reject Jesus
as Messiah, the primarily one being that he did not coming as conquering king
defeating the enemies of Israel. The Suffering Servant of Isaiah was never
identified as the Messiah except in one very late commentary. See the
section on "Jesus as Suffering Servant" at <A
href="http://www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/gre8.htm">www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/gre8.htm</A>.
The opening passage from Isaiah in Gibson's <I>The Passion of the Christ</I> is
therefore not a messanic prophecy.<BR><BR>Thanks also to Ron for reminding us
that his religion, agreeing with Roman patriarchy, would completely
disenfranchise all women of their rights.<BR><BR>I leave you with a
quotation from French Bible Scholar Charles Guignebert: "It is all outside the
plane of reality....It is incredible that such an unusual and disturbing
proceeding, as the census spoken of by Luke must necessarily have been, should
have escaped all notice in Josephus. We will not unduly stress the peculiarity
of the mode of census taking implied in our text, but it is to be noted that it
is a very strange proceeding. The moving about of men and families which this
reckless decree must have caused throughout the whole of the Empire is almost
beyond imagination, and one cannot help wondering what advantage there could be
for the Roman state in this return, for a single day, of so many scattered
individuals, not to the places of their birth, but to the original homes of
their ancestors. For it is to be remembered that those of royal descent were not
the only ones affected by this fantastic ordinance, and many a poor man must
have been hard put to it to discover the cradle of his race. The suspicion, or
rather, the conviction, is borne in upon us at first sight that the editor of
Luke has simply been looking for some means of bringing Joseph and Mary to
Bethlehem, in order to have Jesus born there. A hagiographer of his type never
bothers much about common sense in inventing the circumstances he
requires."<BR><BR>Nick Gier </DIV></BODY></HTML>