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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I must assume that you all realize that
Christians did not set up a 'one way to heaven' policy...God did. We could
move on to the whole concept of men writing the book but if you accept that the
66 books used by most Christians is from God it is clear from beginning to
end the book makes it clear that if you call yourself Christian there is only
one way to follow it. Boy what a long sentence!) Not a decision made by one
person but a reading of the Word by many. You do not have to join in as it is
completely your choice. But, to hold those who have made the choice up to
punishment for the 'one way' concept is cruel and inaccurate. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>PK</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=deco@moscow.com href="mailto:deco@moscow.com">Art Deco</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision 2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, December 31, 2004 10:40
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ponderers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ron Smith says:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ being God is the
cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are saying my faith
is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right. <I>That</I> would be
silly.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Unintentionally perhaps, Ron has pointed to something that
might be of significance to many of us:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In Ron's faith and many other faiths, the only way to some
alleged ecstatic, eternal life is by believing and affirming certain
statements.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>My guess is that for many of the religious, an ecstatic,
eternal life is the main event, allegedly infinitely paling anything and
everything that occurs here on earth. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Isn't it a bit perplexing that an alleged omnipowerful,
omnibeneficient God would present such difficult, confusing, yea contradictory
instructions for achieving/earning such a coveted goal. Wouldn't the
hypothesis that this alleged God is either indifferent or diabolically
sadistic be more consistent with the evidence at hand?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Even a periodic, straightforward, unequivocal, unmistakable
demonstration of her/his/its existence/wishes/intentions would certainly be a
more effective way to market its/his/her program. Instead we are left
with a welter of confusing (the Virgin Mary appears on a grilled cheese
sandwich), contradictory, indecipherable, intransigent, hate and war
generating claims without not only rancorous disagreement, but worse yet,
no method, so far discoverable, to find the truth. Again, this seems to
support the hypotheses of either [1] an alleged god(s) of vastly different
properties than those proclaimed by his/her/its earthly followers or [2] no
god(s) at all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Perhaps, upon pondering these things, we might be better off
doing good works and improving the plight on earth of those here now and those
who will live in the future instead of worrying about an afterlife.
[Christians: compare this proposal with the verses from Matthew recently
discussed on this forum.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>We (Linda, Wayne, and Star) wish <STRONG>all</STRONG> of you
and <STRONG>all</STRONG> in the universe joy and the hope that we all can help
find a way to achieve more peace and better will among
humankind.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><BR><BR>Wayne A. Fox<BR>1009 Karen Lane<BR>PO Box 9421<BR>Moscow,
ID 83843</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(208) 882-7975<BR><A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ron_smith@md7.com href="mailto:ron_smith@md7.com">Ron Smith</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] The Divinity
of Christ</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText8973 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That's "berry,
berry" sneaky of you Ms. Opyr. Either your response does not speak to the
issue at hand, or you changed the issue on me while my head was turned.
I wasn't speaking to you as a believer in the gospels. My response was to
your previous and fallacious claims that the first three gospels do not
speak to the deity of Jesus. "They sing a different tune" I believe is what
you said. My response was simply to refute that notion. All four gospels
sing loudly and in unison the same tune: "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of
the Living God."</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Then,
you go on to say, "</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
size=3>You have taken four texts, four gospels, all written by followers of
Jesus in the century or so after his crucifixion.
<STRONG><I>These gospels have one purpose</I></STRONG> and one purpose only,
and that is <STRONG><I>to spread the belief that Jesus was lord, messiah,
and Christ</I></STRONG>.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">"
(emphasis mine)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You need to make
up your mind. Do <EM>all four </EM>of the gospels all speak to the divinity
of Jesus or just John? Again, this has been my point from the beginning of
all this. I have sought to point out your inconsistencies with regard to
statements you made about the New Testament. The fact that I deem these
texts holy is irrelevant to this discussion. You have made false statements
about these texts and all I have been doing is critisizing those false
statements. Your subsequent example of how I would not be convinced of
non-biblical theology by the use non-biblical texts is thus, pointless to
this discussion. Of course, I would not.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Then you're all:
"</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>I’m
also not willing to say that your faith is wrong</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">" </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This is so
laughable and bursting with contradiction. I say Christ is God. You say He
is not. Christ being God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is
not God, you are saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t
all be right. <I>That</I> would be silly.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<DIV></DIV><FONT color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN>
<P><FONT color=#000000></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Sincerely (and, for
the sake of my friend Brad, my final word on the subject)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Thanks so much
for giving me the final word, Ms Opyr. That’s awful “O’Reilly” of you. =)
It's been fun, seriously.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Happy New
Year,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Ron
Smith/Billie the Goat</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on
behalf of Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 12/30/2004 5:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=3><FONT color=#000000><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Ron
writes:</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">"It is clear as well, Ms. Opyr
that you are well versed in anti-Christian rhetoric, but you failed to
handle Jesus’ other claims to deity. Who else is called "Lord", "Messiah" or
"the Christ"? <SPAN> </SPAN>Who else is to be worshiped other than God?
Who else has the authority to forgive sin?"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Don't be silly, young man.
If there's one thing I expect from Biblical literalists, it's a
thorough knowledge of scripture. If you'll re-read Acts, I think
you'll find that the high priest lists several other possibilities for the
title of messiah. And let's not forget that Jesus preached in an
occupied </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Jerusalem</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"> -- an occupation that,
not unlike our current occupation of </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Iraq</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">, was not universally welcomed
by the locals.<SPAN> </SPAN>The Jews were on the lookout for a
messiah to free them from </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Rome</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">, as well as from
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Rome</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">'s Sanhedrin
puppets.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">But that’s all beside the
point.<SPAN> </SPAN>Your questions to me are frankly
silly.<SPAN> </SPAN>They can only be asked by one believer of
another.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m not a believer.<SPAN> </SPAN>The New
Testament is meaningless to me.<SPAN> </SPAN>You ask who else is
called Lord, Messiah, or Christ?<SPAN> </SPAN>I don’t know -- David
Koresh?<SPAN> </SPAN>Jim Jones?<SPAN> </SPAN>The Grand High
Llama of the Purple and White Garter?<SPAN> </SPAN>You have taken four
texts, four gospels, all written by followers of Jesus in the century
or so after his crucifixion.<SPAN> </SPAN>These gospels have one
purpose and one purpose only, and that is to spread the belief that Jesus
was lord, messiah, and Christ.<SPAN> </SPAN>It’s impossible to use
them as you’re attempting to do -- as part of a logical, cohesive
argument.<SPAN> </SPAN>You cannot turn faith into fact by quoting
scriptures that you deem holy.<SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN></SPAN>Let me give you an
example: I’m guessing that you don’t believe in the Upanishads.<SPAN>
</SPAN>If I quoted from them in order to prove the existence of </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT color=#000000>Brahma the creator, Agni
the god of fire, or Vishnu the preserver, you’d throw those babies
out along with their email bathwater.<SPAN> </SPAN>And yet one
billion Hindus can’t be wrong, can they?<SPAN> Perhaps y</SPAN>ou’re
willing to say that they are.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m not.<SPAN>
</SPAN>I’m also not willing to say that your faith is wrong, or Keely’s
faith, or anyone else’s faith. I don't have that kind of hubris
-- just the kind that makes me question your pillars certainty (and
consequent criticism of others) and ask you to defend them in their
historical and contextual context. As you and your pal Dale clearly
feel quite cock-sure of yourselves, you ought to be willing and able to do
that. In spades. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Which brings me to my final point
(and to the happy release of Brad Neuman’s delete key.)
<SPAN> </SPAN>I am <B><U>not</U></B> well-versed in
anti-Christian rhetoric.<SPAN> </SPAN>I am <B><U>not</U></B>
anti-Christian. Be Christian all you like. Have at it, with
my blessings upon you. I don't care what religion you practice or
what articles of faith you believe. I am, however,
anti-ignorance; I am anti-unexamined, unfettered, and indefensible
Biblical literalism; and I am utterly opposed to shoddy argumentation and
cheesy scriptural one-upsmanship. If you want to play the Bible quote
game, then try explaining Luke 3:38, in which Adam is described as "son
of God." (A tricky character, Adam -- no mother, only God, his
father. And what about Eve, born of the virgin Adam?) Try also
Job 38, which tells us that the "sons of God" shouted for joy at the earth's
creation, or Job 1:6, or Genesis 6:2, which again make reference to
"sons of God."<SPAN> </SPAN>Learn something about the history and
source of your faith before you toss out bits of Matthew, Mark, Luke and
John with such wild and reckless abandon.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>It’s fine with me
that you believe in the divinity of Christ. It should be fine with you
that I don’t.<SPAN> </SPAN>On matters of faith, we should live and let
live.<SPAN> </SPAN>What isn't fine is to accuse those who
believe differently of atheism, and then to make an argument in
your favor that goes something like this: some of Jesus' followers believed
him to be the only begotten son of God, they recorded this belief in
writing, and sometime between the second and fourth centuries, the
texts that supported this view were gathered together into the four
canonical gospels. So, now we've got a New Testament; the
early Christian Church has accepted it; ergo, Jesus is the son of
God. That's circular reasoning at its worst. I have greater
respect for those Christian Bookstore bumper stickers that say, "God said
it, I believe it, that's the end of it." </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>And so it
is<SPAN> As my grand-dad used to say, why </SPAN>go around your
ass to get to your elbow?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Sincerely (and, for
the sake of my friend Brad, my final word on the subject),</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Joan Opyr/Auntie
Establishment</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></DIV><BR
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