<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<HTML><BODY STYLE="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText59968 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>What do you think about the writings of the
first century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080></FONT> </DIV><FONT
color=#000080></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>"<FONT color=#000000>About this time there
lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was
one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept
the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the
Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had
condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not
cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the
prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about
him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to
this day not disappeared. </FONT>
<P><FONT
color=#000000>
- <I>Jewish Antiquities</I>, 18.3.3 §63</FONT> "</P>
<P>Happy New year to you as well, Ms Opyr.</P>
<P>Ron Smith/Billie the Goat</P>
<P>P.S. Who is Lawrence Welk? =)</P></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com
on behalf of Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Fri 12/31/2004 1:36 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I think you'll find, Mr. Smith, that you are reading the first three
gospels (as many Christians do) in light of the last, John. It is
John that makes the direct claim that Jesus and God are one and the
same. The others use the terms messiah, lord, and son of God, but the
direct correspondence/equality between God and Jesus is asserted only
in John. Throughout the first three gospels, what we find is Jesus
praying to God for faith and aid; we don't find him praying to himself.
Far from being fallacious, my claims are based on simple textual
fact. The problem here is that you're reading backwards, beginning with
John and interpreting the gospels that came before it in light of John's
claims. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">All four gospels sing
loudly and in unison the same tune: "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living
God."</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Well, no. Let's not get confused here. "Jesus is the
Christ, the Son of the living God," is not the same as saying that "Jesus is
God," as John does. There's plenty of textual scholarship to back
this up, but I fear it would be a waste of time to attach an
annotated bibliography to this message. If you believe as Dale believes,
you wouldn't read it -- too many women scholars. Nonetheless, if
you're interested, let me know.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You need to make up
your mind. Do <EM>all four </EM>of the gospels all speak to the divinity of
Jesus or just John?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Again, this has been
my point from the beginning of all this. I have sought to point out your
inconsistencies with regard to statements you made about the New Testament.
The fact that I deem these texts holy is irrelevant to this discussion. You have
made false statements about these texts and all I have been doing is
critisizing those false statements.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT color=#000000>I
have made up my mind, and no, they don't all speak to the divinity of
Jesus. Some speak to Jesus' status as teacher and prophet; some as
messiah; some as Christ; and John makes the final leap and tells us that Jesus
was God come to earth as man. When I say that the four canonical gospels
have one purpose and one purpose only (which is why they were chosen for the
canon while other gospels, like Thomas, were rejected), and that purpose is
to spread faith in Jesus as messiah, as lord, and as
Christ, these claims are not synonymous with the claim that Jesus is
God. Only by reading backwards from John (see above) do you get that
specific correlation.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This is so laughable
and bursting with contradiction. I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ
being God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are
saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right.
<I>That</I> would be silly.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>The world is bursting with contradiction, Mr.
Smith. Get used to it. You say that Jesus is God, and I
say that I don't believe he is. I point out to you some
contradictions in the texts on which you base your claims, but I fail to
see how that takes a sledgehammer to the cornerstone of your faith. What
do you care what I think? Dale Courtney says that I'm an atheist (which is
where this argument started, if you'll remember), and I say that my God,
the God of the Jews, is the foundation, history, and source of your
own faith, so even you should understand that I am not an atheist. In
response, you give me John 20:23, to wit, he who doesn't have the son,
doesn't have the father. From my point of view as a practicing
Jew, that's a load of hooey. It also fails to define the word
atheist.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Now, finally, you say that we can't all be right. How the
devil would you know? Are you reading backward from the Gospel of
John or the Gospel of Ron? I have to wonder because it seems to
me that in your cosmos, God can be confined to four gospels, a few
letters from Paul, and the five points of Calvin's Institutes. That
doesn't work for me. In fact, it seems to me much more likely that
God is so infinite that no single human system can contain or comprehend
him/her. We might need many systems, and each and every one
might have some small grasp on a corner of the truth. Though I am in
my personal practice a Jew, philosophically, I'm a Unitarian-Universalist.
So there you have it -- my deep dark secret. Enjoy.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>And that's it for me. Really and truly, this time. I
wish you a happy New Year, Billy the Goat, and one filled with l'hakshot,
fearless questioning. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Goodnight, sweetheart, </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>And pleasant dreams to you.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Here's a wish and a prayer</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>That every dream comes true.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>And now 'till we meet again,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Adios. Au revoir. Auf
weidersehn. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Goodnight!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000>PS: For some reason, I woke up with the Lawrence Welk theme song
playing in my head. My heavenly reward or a punishment for tormenting
Ron? You be the judge. </FONT></SPAN><FONT
color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>