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<DIV><FONT size=4>Ponderers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Ron Smith says:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ being God is the cornerstone
of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are saying my faith is wrong.
Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right. <I>That</I> would be
silly.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Unintentionally perhaps, Ron has pointed to something that
might be of significance to many of us:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>In Ron's faith and many other faiths, the only way to some
alleged ecstatic, eternal life is by believing and affirming certain
statements.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>My guess is that for many of the religious, an ecstatic,
eternal life is the main event, allegedly infinitely paling anything and
everything that occurs here on earth. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Isn't it a bit perplexing that an alleged omnipowerful,
omnibeneficient God would present such difficult, confusing, yea contradictory
instructions for achieving/earning such a coveted goal. Wouldn't the
hypothesis that this alleged God is either indifferent or diabolically sadistic
be more consistent with the evidence at hand?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Even a periodic, straightforward, unequivocal, unmistakable
demonstration of her/his/its existence/wishes/intentions would certainly be a
more effective way to market its/his/her program. Instead we are left with
a welter of confusing (the Virgin Mary appears on a grilled cheese sandwich),
contradictory, indecipherable, intransigent, hate and war generating claims
without not only rancorous disagreement, but worse yet, no method, so far
discoverable, to find the truth. Again, this seems to support the
hypotheses of either [1] an alleged god(s) of vastly different properties than
those proclaimed by his/her/its earthly followers or [2] no god(s) at
all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>Perhaps, upon pondering these things, we might be better off
doing good works and improving the plight on earth of those here now and those
who will live in the future instead of worrying about an afterlife.
[Christians: compare this proposal with the verses from Matthew recently
discussed on this forum.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=4>We (Linda, Wayne, and Star) wish <STRONG>all</STRONG> of you
and <STRONG>all</STRONG> in the universe joy and the hope that we all can help
find a way to achieve more peace and better will among
humankind.</FONT></DIV><FONT size=4>
<DIV><BR><BR>Wayne A. Fox<BR>1009 Karen Lane<BR>PO Box 9421<BR>Moscow, ID
83843</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(208) 882-7975<BR><A
href="mailto:waf@moscow.com">waf@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ron_smith@md7.com href="mailto:ron_smith@md7.com">Ron Smith</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 30, 2004 9:27
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText8973 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT color=#000080>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That's "berry,
berry" sneaky of you Ms. Opyr. Either your response does not speak to the
issue at hand, or you changed the issue on me while my head was turned. I
wasn't speaking to you as a believer in the gospels. My response was to your
previous and fallacious claims that the first three gospels do not speak to
the deity of Jesus. "They sing a different tune" I believe is what you said.
My response was simply to refute that notion. All four gospels sing loudly and
in unison the same tune: "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living
God."</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Then,
you go on to say, "</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
size=3>You have taken four texts, four gospels, all written by followers of
Jesus in the century or so after his crucifixion.
<STRONG><I>These gospels have one purpose</I></STRONG> and one purpose only,
and that is <STRONG><I>to spread the belief that Jesus was lord, messiah, and
Christ</I></STRONG>.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">"
(emphasis mine)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You need to make up
your mind. Do <EM>all four </EM>of the gospels all speak to the divinity of
Jesus or just John? Again, this has been my point from the beginning of all
this. I have sought to point out your inconsistencies with regard to
statements you made about the New Testament. The fact that I deem these
texts holy is irrelevant to this discussion. You have made false statements
about these texts and all I have been doing is critisizing those false
statements. Your subsequent example of how I would not be convinced of
non-biblical theology by the use non-biblical texts is thus, pointless to this
discussion. Of course, I would not.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Then you're all:
"</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>I’m also
not willing to say that your faith is wrong</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">" </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This is so
laughable and bursting with contradiction. I say Christ is God. You say He is
not. Christ being God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not
God, you are saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all
be right. <I>That</I> would be silly.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<DIV></DIV><FONT color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN>
<P><FONT color=#000000></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Sincerely (and, for
the sake of my friend Brad, my final word on the subject)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Thanks so much for
giving me the final word, Ms Opyr. That’s awful “O’Reilly” of you. =) It's
been fun, seriously.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Happy New
Year,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Ron
Smith/Billie the Goat</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on
behalf of Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 12/30/2004 5:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=3><FONT color=#000000><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Ron
writes:</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">"It is clear as well, Ms. Opyr that
you are well versed in anti-Christian rhetoric, but you failed to handle
Jesus’ other claims to deity. Who else is called "Lord", "Messiah" or "the
Christ"? <SPAN> </SPAN>Who else is to be worshiped other than God? Who
else has the authority to forgive sin?"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Don't be silly, young man. If
there's one thing I expect from Biblical literalists, it's a thorough
knowledge of scripture. If you'll re-read Acts, I think you'll find that
the high priest lists several other possibilities for the title of
messiah. And let's not forget that Jesus preached in an occupied
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Jerusalem</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"> -- an occupation that,
not unlike our current occupation of </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Iraq</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">, was not universally welcomed
by the locals.<SPAN> </SPAN>The Jews were on the lookout for a
messiah to free them from </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Rome</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">, as well as from </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Rome</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">'s Sanhedrin
puppets.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">But that’s all beside the
point.<SPAN> </SPAN>Your questions to me are frankly silly.<SPAN>
</SPAN>They can only be asked by one believer of another.<SPAN>
</SPAN>I’m not a believer.<SPAN> </SPAN>The New Testament is meaningless
to me.<SPAN> </SPAN>You ask who else is called Lord, Messiah, or
Christ?<SPAN> </SPAN>I don’t know -- David Koresh?<SPAN>
</SPAN>Jim Jones?<SPAN> </SPAN>The Grand High Llama of the Purple and
White Garter?<SPAN> </SPAN>You have taken four texts, four gospels, all
written by followers of Jesus in the century or so after his
crucifixion.<SPAN> </SPAN>These gospels have one purpose and one purpose
only, and that is to spread the belief that Jesus was lord, messiah, and
Christ.<SPAN> </SPAN>It’s impossible to use them as you’re attempting to
do -- as part of a logical, cohesive argument.<SPAN> </SPAN>You cannot
turn faith into fact by quoting scriptures that you deem holy.<SPAN>
</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN></SPAN>Let me give you an
example: I’m guessing that you don’t believe in the Upanishads.<SPAN>
</SPAN>If I quoted from them in order to prove the existence of </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT color=#000000>Brahma the creator, Agni the
god of fire, or Vishnu the preserver, you’d throw those babies out along
with their email bathwater.<SPAN> </SPAN>And yet one billion Hindus
can’t be wrong, can they?<SPAN> Perhaps y</SPAN>ou’re willing to say
that they are.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m not.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m also not
willing to say that your faith is wrong, or Keely’s faith, or anyone else’s
faith. I don't have that kind of hubris -- just the kind that makes
me question your pillars certainty (and consequent criticism of
others) and ask you to defend them in their historical and contextual
context. As you and your pal Dale clearly feel quite cock-sure of
yourselves, you ought to be willing and able to do that.
In spades. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Which brings me to my final point
(and to the happy release of Brad Neuman’s delete key.)
<SPAN> </SPAN>I am <B><U>not</U></B> well-versed in anti-Christian
rhetoric.<SPAN> </SPAN>I am <B><U>not</U></B> anti-Christian. Be
Christian all you like. Have at it, with my blessings upon
you. I don't care what religion you practice or what articles of faith
you believe. I am, however, anti-ignorance; I am anti-unexamined,
unfettered, and indefensible Biblical literalism; and I am utterly
opposed to shoddy argumentation and cheesy scriptural one-upsmanship. If
you want to play the Bible quote game, then try explaining Luke 3:38, in
which Adam is described as "son of God." (A tricky character, Adam -- no
mother, only God, his father. And what about Eve, born of the virgin
Adam?) Try also Job 38, which tells us that the "sons of God" shouted
for joy at the earth's creation, or Job 1:6, or Genesis 6:2, which
again make reference to "sons of God."<SPAN> </SPAN>Learn something
about the history and source of your faith before you toss out bits of
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John with such wild and reckless abandon.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>It’s fine with me that
you believe in the divinity of Christ. It should be fine with you that I
don’t.<SPAN> </SPAN>On matters of faith, we should live and let
live.<SPAN> </SPAN>What isn't fine is to accuse those who
believe differently of atheism, and then to make an argument in your
favor that goes something like this: some of Jesus' followers believed him to
be the only begotten son of God, they recorded this belief in writing, and
sometime between the second and fourth centuries, the texts that
supported this view were gathered together into the four canonical
gospels. So, now we've got a New Testament; the early
Christian Church has accepted it; ergo, Jesus is the son of God.
That's circular reasoning at its worst. I have greater respect for
those Christian Bookstore bumper stickers that say, "God said it, I believe
it, that's the end of it." </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>And so it
is<SPAN> As my grand-dad used to say, why </SPAN>go around your ass
to get to your elbow?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Sincerely (and, for
the sake of my friend Brad, my final word on the subject),</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Joan Opyr/Auntie
Establishment</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></DIV><BR
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