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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">That's "berry, berry"
sneaky of you Ms. Opyr. Either your response does not speak to the issue at
hand, or you changed the issue on me while my head was turned. I wasn't
speaking to you as a believer in the gospels. My response was to your previous
and fallacious claims that the first three gospels do not speak to the deity of
Jesus. "They sing a different tune" I believe is what you said. My response was
simply to refute that notion. All four gospels sing loudly and in unison the
same tune: "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God."</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Then,
you go on to say, "</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT
size=3>You have taken four texts, four gospels, all written by followers of
Jesus in the century or so after his crucifixion.
<STRONG><I>These gospels have one purpose</I></STRONG> and one purpose only, and
that is <STRONG><I>to spread the belief that Jesus was lord, messiah, and
Christ</I></STRONG>.</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">"
(emphasis mine)</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">You need to make up
your mind. Do <EM>all four </EM>of the gospels all speak to the divinity of
Jesus or just John? Again, this has been my point from the beginning of all
this. I have sought to point out your inconsistencies with regard to statements
you made about the New Testament. The fact that I deem these texts holy is
irrelevant to this discussion. You have made false statements about these texts
and all I have been doing is critisizing those false statements. Your
subsequent example of how I would not be convinced of non-biblical theology by
the use non-biblical texts is thus, pointless to this discussion. Of course, I
would not.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Then you're all:
"</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>I’m also
not willing to say that your faith is wrong</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">" </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">This is so laughable
and bursting with contradiction. I say Christ is God. You say He is not. Christ
being God is the cornerstone of my faith. By you saying He is not God, you are
saying my faith is wrong. Don’t feel bad about it. We can’t all be right.
<I>That</I> would be silly.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">
<DIV></DIV><FONT color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN>
<P><FONT color=#000000></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Sincerely (and, for the
sake of my friend Brad, my final word on the subject)</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Thanks so much for
giving me the final word, Ms Opyr. That’s awful “O’Reilly” of you. =) It's been
fun, seriously.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana">Happy New
Year,</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Ron
Smith/Billie the Goat</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
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</DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on
behalf of Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thu 12/30/2004 5:27 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080><FONT
size=3><FONT color=#000000><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Ron
writes:</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></FONT>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">"It is clear as well, Ms. Opyr that
you are well versed in anti-Christian rhetoric, but you failed to handle Jesus’
other claims to deity. Who else is called "Lord", "Messiah" or "the Christ"?
<SPAN> </SPAN>Who else is to be worshiped other than God? Who else has the
authority to forgive sin?"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Don't be silly, young man. If
there's one thing I expect from Biblical literalists, it's a thorough
knowledge of scripture. If you'll re-read Acts, I think you'll find that
the high priest lists several other possibilities for the title of
messiah. And let's not forget that Jesus preached in an occupied
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Jerusalem</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"> -- an occupation that,
not unlike our current occupation of </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Iraq</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">, was not universally welcomed
by the locals.<SPAN> </SPAN>The Jews were on the lookout for a
messiah to free them from </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Rome</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">, as well as from </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Rome</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">'s Sanhedrin
puppets.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">But that’s all beside the
point.<SPAN> </SPAN>Your questions to me are frankly silly.<SPAN>
</SPAN>They can only be asked by one believer of another.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m
not a believer.<SPAN> </SPAN>The New Testament is meaningless to
me.<SPAN> </SPAN>You ask who else is called Lord, Messiah, or
Christ?<SPAN> </SPAN>I don’t know -- David Koresh?<SPAN> </SPAN>Jim
Jones?<SPAN> </SPAN>The Grand High Llama of the Purple and White
Garter?<SPAN> </SPAN>You have taken four texts, four gospels, all written
by followers of Jesus in the century or so after his
crucifixion.<SPAN> </SPAN>These gospels have one purpose and one purpose
only, and that is to spread the belief that Jesus was lord, messiah, and
Christ.<SPAN> </SPAN>It’s impossible to use them as you’re attempting to
do -- as part of a logical, cohesive argument.<SPAN> </SPAN>You cannot
turn faith into fact by quoting scriptures that you deem holy.<SPAN>
</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN></SPAN>Let me give you an
example: I’m guessing that you don’t believe in the Upanishads.<SPAN>
</SPAN>If I quoted from them in order to prove the existence of </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT color=#000000>Brahma the creator, Agni the
god of fire, or Vishnu the preserver, you’d throw those babies out along
with their email bathwater.<SPAN> </SPAN>And yet one billion Hindus can’t
be wrong, can they?<SPAN> Perhaps y</SPAN>ou’re willing to say that they
are.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m not.<SPAN> </SPAN>I’m also not willing to say
that your faith is wrong, or Keely’s faith, or anyone else’s faith. I
don't have that kind of hubris -- just the kind that makes me question your
pillars certainty (and consequent criticism of others) and ask you to
defend them in their historical and contextual context. As you and your
pal Dale clearly feel quite cock-sure of yourselves, you ought to be willing and
able to do that. In spades. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><SPAN> </SPAN><SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Which brings me to my final point
(and to the happy release of Brad Neuman’s delete key.)
<SPAN> </SPAN>I am <B><U>not</U></B> well-versed in anti-Christian
rhetoric.<SPAN> </SPAN>I am <B><U>not</U></B> anti-Christian. Be
Christian all you like. Have at it, with my blessings upon you.
I don't care what religion you practice or what articles of faith you
believe. I am, however, anti-ignorance; I am anti-unexamined,
unfettered, and indefensible Biblical literalism; and I am utterly opposed
to shoddy argumentation and cheesy scriptural one-upsmanship. If you want
to play the Bible quote game, then try explaining Luke 3:38, in which Adam
is described as "son of God." (A tricky character, Adam -- no mother, only
God, his father. And what about Eve, born of the virgin Adam?) Try
also Job 38, which tells us that the "sons of God" shouted for joy at the
earth's creation, or Job 1:6, or Genesis 6:2, which again make reference to
"sons of God."<SPAN> </SPAN>Learn something about the history and source
of your faith before you toss out bits of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John with such
wild and reckless abandon.</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>It’s fine with me that
you believe in the divinity of Christ. It should be fine with you that I
don’t.<SPAN> </SPAN>On matters of faith, we should live and let
live.<SPAN> </SPAN>What isn't fine is to accuse those who
believe differently of atheism, and then to make an argument in your
favor that goes something like this: some of Jesus' followers believed him to be
the only begotten son of God, they recorded this belief in writing, and
sometime between the second and fourth centuries, the texts that
supported this view were gathered together into the four canonical
gospels. So, now we've got a New Testament; the early Christian
Church has accepted it; ergo, Jesus is the son of God.
That's circular reasoning at its worst. I have greater respect for
those Christian Bookstore bumper stickers that say, "God said it, I believe it,
that's the end of it." </FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>And so it is<SPAN>
As my grand-dad used to say, why </SPAN>go around your ass to get to your
elbow?</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Sincerely (and, for the
sake of my friend Brad, my final word on the subject),</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Joan Opyr/Auntie
Establishment</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P></FONT></SPAN></DIV></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>