<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<HTML><BODY STYLE="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt verdana; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<DIV id=idOWAReplyText29598 dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080>Out one side of
Ms. Opyr's mouth comes: <SPAN style="COLOR: black"> <FONT face=Georgia>“The
first three gospels (and the excluded Book of Thomas) sing a rather different
tune about the divinity of Jesus.”</FONT></SPAN><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080>And out the other:</FONT> <FONT face=Georgia>"I am not "poorly
representing" the New Testament gospels. I'm not representing them at
all."</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><STRONG>represent</STRONG></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT color=#000080><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Pronunciation: </SPAN><TT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">"re-pri-'zent</SPAN></TT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><BR><FONT color=#000080>Function:
<I>verb</I><BR><STRONG>1:</STRONG> to describe as having a specified character
or quality (i.e. "to describe as <EM>not</EM> proclaiming Jesus'
deity)<BR><B>2:</B> to give one's impression and judgment
of.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080>(There are a
few other definitions, but these are the most pertinent to Ms. Opyr's
contradiction.)<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080>It is clear as
well, Ms. Opyr that you are well versed in anti-Christian rhetoric, but you
failed to handle Jesus’ other claims to deity. Who else is called "Lord",
"Messiah" or "the Christ"? Who else is to be worshiped other than God? Who else
has the authority to forgive sin?<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080>The life and
death of Jesus beg more than a few questions. Why was Jesus crucified if not for
blasphemy? If it <EM>was </EM>blasphemy, what was the nature of that blasphemy
if not claims to deity? If Jesus <EM>did</EM> claim deity, why would He have
done so if He was indeed <EM>not</EM> God? He would have had to be mad. Then you
have to ask yourself, "Self, why do you "admire" the teachings of a
madman?"<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT
color=#000080>More from Ms. Opyr:</FONT><FONT color=#000000> <FONT
face=Georgia>“The notion that the gospels are literally true was not, as
the religious scholar Karen Armstrong has ably argued, an idea that was
contemporary among Jesus and his followers; it was an 18th century
invention/innovation.”<o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT
color=#000080>This statement would be laughable were it not for the thousands of
Christians who were murdered for their faith long before this so-called 18th
century innovation of literal scripture interpretation. I don’t know who the
“religious scholar” Karen Armstrong is, but someone should inform her that
people don’t usually lay down their lives for what they believe to be merely
hypothetical.<o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT color=#000080>Ron
Smith</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT
color=#000080> <o:p></o:p></FONT></SPAN></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><FONT
color=#000080>PS – I never said you were an atheist. That was you poorly
representing <I>me</I>.</FONT></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#000000
size=2></DIV></DIV></FONT>
<DIV dir=ltr><BR>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> vision2020-bounces@moscow.com on behalf of
Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tue 12/28/2004 6:38 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Vision2020
Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] The Divinity of
Christ<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Ron writes:</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ms. Opyr says: “The
first three gospels (and the excluded Book of Thomas) sing a rather different
tune about the divinity of Jesus.”</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ms. Opyr, this is
simply not true. While I have not read the gospel according to Thomas, I believe
that Thomas himself attested to the divinity of Jesus. <B>John
</B></SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">20:28</SPAN></B><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Thomas said to him
[Jesus], “My Lord and my God!”</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana"></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">The text you quote, Mr. Smith, is part of John's
refutation of the Gospel of Thomas. It's in the passage that
gave rise to the term “doubting Thomas” because that particular
disciple, "the Twin," refused to believe that Jesus was risen from the dead
until he'd seen the nail marks in Jesus' hands.<SPAN> </SPAN>The quotation
doesn't prove your point in that it's John attesting that Thomas attested to the
divinity of Jesus.<SPAN> </SPAN>It's a third-hand account; it directly
contradicts the Gospel of Thomas (which you haven't read); and, at this point, I
think even Lance Ito would find it inadmissible.<SPAN> </SPAN>Moving right
along . . . </SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">"As for the other gospels, Jesus is
repeatedly called the Son of God."</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">As any competent Hebrew scholar can attest, Son of
God was a generic term among the Hebrew people. Throughout the Old
Testament, many people are called the Son of God.<SPAN> (</SPAN>I would
call your attention especially to Ezekiel.)<SPAN> </SPAN>All Jews are the
sons and daughters of God; by our own account, the Jews are God's chosen
people. I try not to let this go to my head, but to quote the gospel
of Mac Davis, "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble."</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">Mr. Smith goes on to recite:</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN></B> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Matthew 26:63-64 And the
high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us
whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus said to him, "You have said
it yourself.”</FONT></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT
size=3></FONT></SPAN></B> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Matthew 27:54 Now the
centurion, and those who were with him keeping guard over Jesus, when they saw
the earthquake and the things that were happening, became very frightened and
said, "Truly this was the Son of God!"</FONT></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Mark 1:1 The beginning of
the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.</FONT></SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">And etcetera, adding: <SPAN style="COLOR: blue">"He
is called other names as well which testify to his divinity – names like
‘Christ’, ‘Messiah’, and ‘Lord’. It is better for you to simply reject the
gospel that to poorly represent it."</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><BR>I</SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">t's
very clear, Mr. Smith, that you are well-practiced in fundamentalist
sword drill, but none of this alters the fact that Dale, and now you, have
described me as a "professed atheist," and I have objected on the sound and
logical grounds that I am not an atheist because I believe in
God. Rhetorically, I might have taken the path of pointing out
that not only am I not an atheist, but Pagans are not atheists; Hindus are not
atheists; Muslims are not atheists; and nor yet are the practitioners of
thousands of other world religions that are beyond your experience or
ken. If you worship a god or gods, then you are not an
atheist.<SPAN> </SPAN>Period.<SPAN> </SPAN>I believe the word you’re
looking for is heathen, but I wouldn't apply that to myself either.<SPAN>
</SPAN>The God of the Jews became the God of the Christians, and
though your version of Jehovah has had a facelift or two -- and has
traveled down some strange and occasionally dead-end roads in the centuries
since the crucifixion -- the God of Abraham is the source (or father, if
you prefer) of the God that you and Dale Courtney claim to worship.</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Now, as for your other point: I am not
"poorly representing" the New Testament gospels. I'm not representing them
at all.<SPAN> </SPAN>This is because I am not a Christian.<SPAN>
</SPAN>Before we move on, please take out the heavy hammer and whack that point
into your skull. You might do me a favor and pick a particularly thick
spot, say the bit covering your frontal lobe.<SPAN>
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia">In your gospel quotation/interpretation, Mr. Smith,
you are practicing a fundamentalist hermeneutic that I and indeed many of
your fellow Christians completely and utterly reject. The scriptures were
not meant to be read as a newspaper. The New Testament gospels contradict
one another at various key points, and it is clear that they were
intended as a supplement to people's personal experience of conversion, not
as a Life of Christ Fact Sheet. Consider for a moment that the vast
majority of people who became Christians in the early days of the
Church could not read Just because someone is able to construct the
sentence "Jesus is God" using a collection of texts written two thousand years
ago does not make it so; you must rely on your faith for your fact, Mr. Smith,
but it is a rhetorical mistake of the worst kind to confuse the one for the
other. The notion that the gospels are literally true was not, as the
religious scholar Karen Armstrong has ably argued, an idea that was contemporary
among Jesus and his followers; it was an 18th century
invention/innovation. Biblical literalism is co-eval with the
Enlightenment and the beginning of scientific and experiential observation of
the known universe.<SPAN> </SPAN>But that's another story and I haven't
yet had my dinner.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Proverbs 17:28 Even a
fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is
considered prudent.</SPAN></B></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>And if Grandma were a bus, we could
all take a ride.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Georgia"><FONT size=3>Joan Opyr/Auntie
Establishment</FONT></SPAN></P>
<P> </P></DIV></BODY></HTML><br clear=all><hr>Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <a href='http://explorer.msn.com'>http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>