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And here I thought you were an educated fellow. Tsk, tsk - my fault
for the false assumption.<br><br>
"Earnings" are not the issue. The resources that are
required to compensate those "earnings" are the issue.<br><br>
And those costs earned by those slaving away would be paid by whom?
And the costs of the allowances and medical benefits afforded to workers
by the government are paid by whom?<br><br>
And yes indeed, the model is used by N. Korea.<br><br>
And yes indeed, that is exactly what Marx and Engels advocated in the
Manifesto. <br><br>
No doubt you have read and mastered the blatant illogical arguments,
including:
<dl>
<dd><i>Owing to the extensive use of machinery, and to the division of
labor, the work of the proletarians has lost all individual character,
and, consequently, all charm for the workman. He becomes an appendage of
the machine, and it is only the most simple, most monotonous, and most
easily acquired knack, that is required of him. Hence, the cost of
production of a workman is restricted, almost entirely, to the means of
subsistence that he requires for maintenance, and for the propagation of
his race. But the price of a commodity, and therefore also of labor, is
equal to its cost of production. In proportion, therefore, as the
repulsiveness of the work increases, the wage decreases. What is more, in
proportion as the use of machinery and division of labor increases, in
the same proportion the burden of toil also increases, whether by
prolongation of the working hours, by the increase of the work exacted in
a given time, or by increased speed of machinery, etc.</i>
</dl>I am curious, who exactly would decide an individual's "basic
needs"? You?? <br><br>
Your ideas have been tried and have failed - and failed at the cost of
hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of lives. There is no place
for that kind of thinking or that kind of policy in a society that values
private property rights, free enterprise and individual liberties.
The invisible hand of competition assures a fair opportunity for all to
prosper. No guarantees - but life has no guarantees - except of
course, death and taxes. Successful efforts are rewarded -
unsuccessful efforts are not - and they shouldn't be - those costs are
always passed on to everyone else.<br><br>
No, the ultimate responsibility for each individual is to find a way to
"pay their own way" through life. And the path we provide
in this society is to make education available and affordable for every
citizen. Through education and initiative, individuals enhance
their skills and knowledge and hence enhance their value to their fellow
citizens - thereby improving their "stock in life".
Simple and it works - and everyone wins. Before you engage in
advocating communist ideology, read some Friedman, Stigler, McKensie or
Tullock. Then we can have a good dialogue.<br><br>
<br>
At 12:24 AM 12/22/2004, you wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Jeff,<br><br>
If you bothered to read what I said, you would not need to "wonder
who will pay for the allowances". The workers would earn them as
they slave away working for greedy capitalists that think the world ought
to thank them for bringing $5 hour jobs to the community.<br>
This model is not used by North Korea, it is used the United States
government. The Government pays many employees allowances and medical
care. This is not done by the unpatriotic capitalists. If we were to make
companies follow a policy that works for the military and other
government workers, it would ensure that American workers basic needs are
met. This would also help curb problems associated with inflation and
over inflated housing prices that have occurred in every county in
America except four in the last 10 years. It would also help the millions
of Americans out of poverty, most of which are children.<br>
<br>
Jeff, perhaps you should skip down to Book People and ask for a book on
Karl Marx; it is clear to me that you don't understand what he is about,
and the huge differences between what I am advocating and what he
advocated.<br><br>
Take Care,<br><br>
Donovan J Arnold<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">From: Jeff Harkins
<jeffh@moscow.com><br>
To: <vision2020@moscow.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Merry Christmas<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 21:50:52 -0800<br><br>
Hmmm, wonder who will pay for all those allowances. This is very
close to the scheme that Marx advocated. Sure helped the Russian
economy! One real advantage - you can close most of the public
schools - the lower econ levels really don't need the education - because
they have the rest of the working class providing for a "decent
standard of living" without having to advance themselves.<br><br>
And you don't have to go to the trouble of teaching them to fish - they
just go to the state managed food coop for their weekly ration of
lutefisk.<br><br>
I think Korea still uses this model - some of you might want to check it
out.<br><br>
At 09:36 PM 12/21/2004, you wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Ted,<br><br>
You will find that many capitalists believe that raising the minimum wage
is pointless and only causes inflation. They hold to the notion that when
you raise the wages of the lower 10-25% of the population it cause a wave
of pay increases to all the other workers. In order to pay for the
increases businesses raise prices, and thus the gains (buying power) made
by the wage increases are lost to inflation. Now, I happen to believe
that this is in part true because the top wage earners in the company are
also the decision makers and they are not going to take pay cuts to give
decent wages to the workers.<br><br>
I suggest what we do is stop trying to argue with them and force them to
admit their greed by coming up with an alternative form of paying
workers. I would require companies to pay allowances on top of small
wages.<br><br>
Require the company to pay housing, medical, food, clothing, and
transportation. Every full time employee, working 32 hours a week or
more, should get a minimum allowance for each to afford their basic needs
in addition to their salary. For workers that receive less than 32 hours,
pay them benefits in equal proportion, like if they work 16 hours a week,
they get half the allowances as those working 32 hours. The allowances
would be based on the Cost of living index for that area, within 30
miles.<br><br>
This would be the best way to ensure that people are living a decent
quality of life. Housing is becoming increasing impossible to afford, and
medical care already is unaffordable for those living on minimum
wage.<br><br>
Take care,<br><br>
Donovan J Arnold<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">From: Tbertruss@aol.com<br>
To: kjajmix1@msn.com, vision2020@moscow.com,
auntiestablishment@hotmail.com<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Merry Christmas<br>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 14:48:03 EST<br><br>
<br>
Keely:<br><br>
Thanks for your reply.<br><br>
I considered that Christ might be a conservative thinker who though
believing<br>
fervently in helping the poor and disadvantaged, would advocate doing
it<br>
without the governments involvement, by giving aid directly to those who
need it<br>
or through private charity organizations. So taxes to help the poor
would not<br>
be the approach of a conservative altruist. But the minimum wage
issue is<br>
different. For those who want to earn their way and not accept
charity,<br>
especially single parents, the low minimum wage as set by federal
standards (many<br>
states have already raised the minimum wage) is just too low.<br><br>
We are in an age of astonishing CEO salaries, bonuses and golden
parachutes,<br>
yet these same corporations will lobby against raising the minimum
wage.<br>
So<br>
it is OK to pay Jane Fat Cat CEO an extra million, yet if you advocate
taking<br>
that extra million, which the CEO already making millions does not really
need<br>
to feed, clothe and house her children, and suggest giving it via a
pay<br>
increase to working single parents who are at the bottom, suddenly you
are a<br>
"liberal" advocating antibusiness policies. Why then
don't we just do away with the<br>
minimum wage, and let the wonderful "free" market place, that
seems to have<br>
acquired status as a magical solution to humanities problems, work
without<br>
nefarious government regulation? After all, ANY minimum wage is
government<br>
regulation of business. Many corporations would love this! No
need to out source or<br>
move to China, just pay workers in the USA $.80 an hour.<br><br>
I envision Christ busting into the board meeting of a Fortune 500
corporation<br>
and raising a ruckus...<br><br>
I wonder....<br><br>
Ted Moffett<br>
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