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<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>Pat, et al,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>No one on this list has ever justified
those actions of Saddam Hussein which resulted in torture, death, corruption,
etc. He was, in this regard, a most despicable monster. He did,
however like Tito in Yugoslavia, keep the country together and helped to foster
a great number of beneficial economic and other changes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>As a measure of Saddam's overall
performance, perhaps someone on this list could research the number
of deaths in Iraq due to violence and war related activities since our invasion
and compare them to the number in a period of equal length just preceding our
invasion. Also someone might research the growth/destruction of
infrastructure before and after the war. All such estimates will be iffy
but might give some estimate of the effect of the invasion on the quality of
life and the amount of human suffering in Iraq today.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>Most readers have probably seen the news
reports of another effect of the war: a great amount of disease and deaths
resulting from the lack of a sanitary water supply and sanitary sewage disposal
which lack has resulted from the indiscriminate destruction of critical
infrastructure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>We (America) are stuck in a moral
abyss: We cannot morally leave things as they are now. In my
opinion we should make things as good as they were before the invasion and also
attempt to compensate the innocent victims of the effects of our
invasion. By staying, however, we are creating more problems and suffering
whose effects are likely to last beyond the lifetimes of most of us. We
may be facing problems that are impossible to solve at least in terms that are
acceptable to us now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>Pat does not like the radical Islamic
terrorists. I would guess that all V 2020ers do not either. I do not
like terrorists of any religion who use various elements of their
religious/superstitious belief to forward their religious and non-religious
(power, control, enrichment, ego-satisfaction) ends.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>A look at history shows the use of
religious belief to justify war, death, suffering, etc. is not new.
Although some religious beliefs and movements have benefited humankind greatly,
religious belief in general has been and is a leading and most exacerbating
factor in most wars, atrocious infliction of human suffering, the non-natural
caused sufferings of humankind, etc. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>A look at history and/or the daily news
shows that each religious side claims and apparently believes that their alleged
deities are allegedly greatly in favor of their atrocious actions
however contrary to the main tenets of their religious beliefs these
actions are. Unfortunately, there is no way for any side, so far, to
convincingly demonstrate the truth of their claims save cling tenaciously and
often cruelly to their delusional fantasies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Verdana Ref" size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=pkraut@moscow.com href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com">Pat Kraut</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=vision2020@moscow.com
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, December 02, 2004 10:47
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Reading</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>OK, call me stupid but I fail to see what George the 1st has to
do with<BR>getting rid of Saddam now. Except that it would have been nice if
he had<BR>crossed the UN and taken him out back then. We are one step from
elections<BR>in Iraq...will it go well...maybe not...BUT it is a chance for
Iraq to pull<BR>itself out of the mire. The insurgents don't want to see the
elections<BR>succeed and will do all they can to kill and maim all invovled
but, just as<BR>in any beginning there will be those who will stand up for
liberty. Can you<BR>not see the good that can come from this? Do you live so
far to the dark<BR>side that you see no light at all? Once again I ask you if
it had been a<BR>democrat with 'the right war at the right time with France
and Germany<BR>involved' would you have been happier? Maybe seen the good to
come of<BR>sending troops to help?? All those people died or were maimed at
the hand of<BR>Saddam with no hope and you cannot seem to understand that at
all...why do<BR>you not have any compassion for them in any way? Can you not
see the hope<BR>that is there now?? I don't care that George the 1st blew it
following the<BR>UN, I don't care that Clinton the coward should have gotten
Saddam, I care<BR>about today, NOW. If you understand how the 1st should have
taken him out<BR>why are you so failing to see the 2nds leap to really
help?<BR>I am trying to understand<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----
<BR>From: "Tom Hansen" <<A
href="mailto:thansen@moscow.com">thansen@moscow.com</A>><BR>To: "'Pat
Kraut'" <<A href="mailto:pkraut@moscow.com">pkraut@moscow.com</A>>;
"'vision2020'"<BR><<A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A>><BR>Sent:
Thursday, December 02, 2004 6:04 AM<BR>Subject: RE: [Vision2020]
Reading<BR><BR><BR>How soon Ms. Kraut forgets George the
First.<BR><BR>Remember the Iraq War, Part 1? Remember when George the
First promised the<BR>American citizenry that the war was going to be fought
by generals and not<BR>politicians? That ended up being a
lie.<BR><BR>Remember when George the First promised the Kurds that he would
support them<BR>in their fight for liberation? Remember when General
Schwartzkopf said that<BR>he was within 24 hours of entering (and liberating)
Baghdad? George the<BR>First failed in his promise to the Kurds and told
Schwartzkopf to cool his<BR>heals as he (George the First) arranged for a
peace agreement with Saddam.<BR><BR>You are absolutely right, Ms. Kraut.
Thousands and thousands died before<BR>George II "liberated" Iraq. But
alot of that blood is on George the First's<BR>hands.<BR><BR>And now there is
American blood involved in this Iraqi civil war in which<BR>George II has
volunteered 1,500 more troops.<BR><BR>Well . . . As Country Joe McDonald (of
Country Joe and the Fish) once said:<BR><BR>"Well, it's one two three<BR>What
are we fighting for?"<BR><BR>Until we learn . . .<BR><BR>Take care of
yourselves and each other.<BR><BR>Tom "49er" Hansen<BR><BR>We could learn a
lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some are<BR>dull, some have
weird names, and all are different colors....but they all<BR>exist very nicely
in the same box.<BR><BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com">vision2020-bounces@moscow.com</A>
[mailto:vision2020-bounces@moscow.com]<BR>On Behalf Of Pat Kraut<BR>Sent:
Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:45 PM<BR>To: vision2020<BR>Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] Reading<BR><BR>When I have questioned the Palestinians on this
site I have had many emails<BR>that tried to explain their actions to me as if
there could be some<BR>justification for the behavior. I know about the
problem. It is much more<BR>complex than any one story can ever convey. But, I
also know that peace as<BR>described by Palistians is not the same as peace
described by Israeli terms<BR>or mine. It will take much more than two states
to get past the hatred<BR>perpetrated by Palistian mothers among others.
Although two states would be<BR>a start I'd be willing to try I wonder if it
won't be another<BR>Ireland...always at war.<BR>I am always in amazement of
how easily some dismiss the many thousands who<BR>died in Iraq before we got
there with no hope of any good to come of it.<BR>Those who were gassed,
maimed, raped and living in total fear at the hands<BR>of Saddam's sons with
no recourse for help. Yes, many people have died. It<BR>is usually the case in
a war but I believe it is for a better cause than<BR>before. There would have
been no fewer deaths in Iraq if we had not gone<BR>there with no hope of
recourse or help. Why doesn't your compassion go to<BR>those who died before
at the hand of Saddam? Why express it all for those<BR>who died just since we
went there to help give them some hope? Are you just<BR>so totally mad at Bush
that you cannot see a bigger picture? Do you not<BR>understand that we could
still be waiting for a very corrupt UN to go offer<BR>some help? Or do you
just not care because Bush is a republican...if it had<BR>be a democrat who
'did it the right way, at the right time' you would have<BR>gotten on board
with more faith?<BR>It is a complicated, complex world and I am trying to
understand.<BR>PK<BR><BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________<BR> List
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