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<DIV>
<DIV>I am blown away by Saundra's response to Mr. Stout. Well done.
You have my gratitude and admiration, and if Mr. Stout is sincere, you'll have
his as well.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>keely emerine mix </DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:sslund@adelphia.net">Saundra Lund</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:providence@mchsi.com">'Alan Stout'</A> ; <A
href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 23, 2004 5:31
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] RE: Welcome
Elder Alan Stout</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi Pastor Stout,<BR><BR>A belated welcome: I spent the
weekend back-to-school shopping with teen &<BR>pre-teen girls (and
survived to tell the tale), so please accept this
belated<BR>greeting.<BR><BR>You wrote:<BR>"It was also a mistake for me to
insert myself into your local politics. . . .My<BR>apologies for that and I
shall not return."<BR><BR>Oh, I hope that's not the case. For whatever
reasons & by whatever method (the<BR>list serves I participate in
generally consider it good manners for newbie's to<BR>provide a brief &
honest introduction, although that certainly isn't a<BR>requirement here), you
became aware of the reported "polarization" in our<BR>community.<BR><BR>You
seemed candid in your professed ignorance about the details, and I'm
hoping<BR>you are perhaps looking to understand and learn, for whatever
reason.<BR><BR>If you choose to learn and participate, I think you might find
the time well<BR>spent. And, it's possible I/we might be able to learn
from you as well because<BR>your questions seem to indicate a view different
than my own. You see, half of<BR>the controversy has removed themselves
from community dialogue in this forum,<BR>and perhaps seemingly from
discussion with the community as a whole. Because of<BR>this, there
really is no dialogue, something that's bound to lead
to<BR>polarization.<BR><BR>If you have time, peruse the archives for an idea
of the kind of communication<BR>that used to go on. Many months ago,
Christ Church hierarchy & members actually<BR>participated here, believe
it or not. And, while there certainly wasn't<BR>agreement (outside of
lots of support for the Mariners, a Seattle baseball<BR>team), there *was*
communication, questions & answers, debate, etc. We could<BR>learn
about each other directly rather than from news reports, rumor,
and<BR>innuendo.<BR><BR>But then, Christ Church bailed. There are
members still here who lurk & rarely<BR>jump in to "attack", but there is
no more dialogue.<BR><BR>In an earlier post, you wrote:<BR>"1. Does this
"rule" of ad hominem apply to list serves?"<BR><BR>No.<BR><BR>However, it's
also not typical on list serves for the second sentence in a<BR>newbie's post
to have already passed judgment about something as significant
as<BR>"hate." This is particularly disappointing in light of the fact
that you freely<BR>admit to ignorance about the issues that have brought our
community to the<BR>"polarization" point. However, from your other
comments, I'll give you the<BR>benefit of the doubt as the Bible suggests and
assume you simply started out on<BR>the wrong foot.<BR><BR>You also
asked:<BR>"2. Do you who call this church a cult and pastor Wilson
"wolfman" lean to the<BR>left politically and/or theologically?"<BR><BR>First,
I'm not into name-calling (which doesn't mean that I've never made
that<BR>particular mistake), so I can't address the "wolfman" aspect of your
question.<BR><BR>However, from what I know, those of us who are . . . aghast
at the actions of<BR>Christ Church run the gamut theologically &
politically, from left to right,<BR>from conservative to liberal, and
everything between. You simply cannot<BR>stereotype those opposed to the
not-so-hidden agenda of Christ Church, although<BR>perhaps on this list serve,
we tend to hear from one segment more than another.<BR>Amongst the more
conservative Christians, there is consternation for Wilson &<BR>the
hierarchy of the Christ Church empire, just as there is
consternation<BR>amongst the politically conservative segment of the
community.<BR><BR>If you lived here and had the pleasure of actually
participating in our<BR>community, I think you'd discover that for
yourself.<BR><BR>You also asked:<BR>"3. Why would anyone want to visit
Moscow when there are people full of such<BR>vitriol amongst the
population?"<BR><BR>Oh, come on now: certainly Moscow isn't the only
community you are aware of<BR>with strife? Surely you're aware of other
wonderful communities who have<BR>wrestled with different values (i.e.,
environmental concerns competing with<BR>local industry; weapons manufacture
competing with community health; public<BR>health competing with politics,
etc.) . . . right? Whenever the stakes are very<BR>high, it's not at all
uncommon for the debate to be passionate.<BR><BR>But, to answer the question,
Moscow is a great community. It's friendly and<BR>accepting and
tolerant. It's the kind of place where people help each other out<BR>--
even strangers on the street. You'd *never* hear a story about
someone<BR>stranded on the side of the road for hours and hours here.
It's the kind of<BR>place where it's not unusual for people who don't know
each other to wave as<BR>they drive past, or for the community to come
together to help out someone with<BR>a crisis. I can't imagine that we'd
ever have something like a mugging on Main<BR>Street, but if we did, you
*sure* wouldn't read a news story about a crowd<BR>standing around doing
nothing -- if anyone was around, they'd step in to help<BR>the
victim.<BR><BR>You also asked:<BR>"4. Can you tolerate someone of pastor
Wilson's persuasion (theological,<BR>political or follicle) in your
town?"<BR><BR>Well, I guess that depends on what you mean by
"tolerate."<BR><BR>My perception is it's fair to say a good chunk of the
community does not share<BR>some of the more . . . extreme views of Wilson's
particular flavor of<BR>Christianity. However, I don't think there are
many (if any) who would not be<BR>completely supportive of his right to
believe as he chooses, to share those<BR>beliefs with others, and to live his
life according to those beliefs.<BR><BR>But, there is a limit: his right
to believe as he chooses stops at imposing his<BR>beliefs on the rest of
us. For instance, he's free to believe that "feminism"<BR>is not
something for him, and he is certainly free to twist the Bible any way
he<BR>can stomach to support that belief.<BR><BR>But, when he wants to put the
teeth of the law, economic sanctions, etc., behind<BR>his beliefs, then the
community is going to have something to say -- it has an<BR>*obligation* to
speak out. We do NOT want a tyranny by the minority here, and<BR>that's
exactly what Wilson seems to want. There are 22,000+/- people in
this<BR>community with Wilson's flock making up less than a 1000 -- I think
there are<BR>about 200-300 Christ Church adults compared to 16,000+/- "other"
adults in the<BR>community (those stats are off the top of my head &
aren't meant as statements<BR>of facts but rather as rough
approximations).<BR><BR>And, the fact of the matter is that that VAST majority
of adults in this<BR>community do NOT think there's any defense for slavery,
do NOT agree that<BR>feminism is against the Bible, do NOT want a community
where the GLBT community<BR>lives in fear, do NOT think that women in the
military is the sign of a nation<BR>not worth defending, do NOT support
dodging tax obligations, do NOT support<BR>intellectual dishonesty in the form
of plagiarism, etc.<BR><BR>So, *if* your definition of "tolerance" means
allowing a fringe vocal minority<BR>to steamroll over the rest of us, then no,
we we're not "tolerant." But, that's<BR>*not* our definition of
tolerance.<BR><BR>Moving along . . . <BR><BR>You also wrote:<BR>"nor do
I know that Lee is a hero of his (though he would be one of
mine)"<BR><BR>Really??? If I understand correctly, you are a military
man . . . is that<BR>correct? If so, did Lee not take an oath to defend
and uphold the Constitution<BR>of the United States, or am I wrong
there? If I'm correct, then I'm very<BR>curious about how you, as a
military man, can possibly consider Lee anything<BR>other than a traitor to
his country?<BR><BR>You also wrote:<BR>"I am willing to listen to arguments to
the contrary but I get the feeling those<BR>making the charge are doing so in
the dark. Perhaps it is because they despise<BR>a church with more
theological backbone than the local<BR>Unitarians. I don't...
maybe?"<BR><BR>Nope, sorry -- you're wrong there. In too many ways to
pass muster, I find the<BR>Christ Church unacceptably hypocritical and without
backbone.<BR><BR>I'll confine myself to one example, although as most here
know, I could go on &<BR>on & on ;-)<BR><BR>Fact: Wilson
& Christ Church pay a lot of lip service to rejecting
"government"<BR>benefits. The following is recently straight from the
horse's mouth -- or<BR>keyboard -- with respect to a discriminatory Christian
college group receiving<BR>or not receiving government (in the form of a state
university) funding:<BR>"Christians, just like their fellow Americans, have
all four feet in the trough.<BR>No one dares to get between the hogs and the
bucket. We will not have religious<BR>liberty (not to mention other kinds of
liberty) unless we start refusing the<BR>benefits first."<BR><A
href="http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Archive&ArchiveDate=8/1/2004">http://www.dougwils.com/index.asp?Action=Archive&ArchiveDate=8/1/2004</A><BR><BR>IMHO,
that's a very strange stance for the head of a church who has
been<BR>feasting, and wants to continue feasting, at the public trough in the
form of<BR>property tax exemptions! Can we say 'hypocrisy'?<BR><BR>You
also wrote:<BR>"4. I know nothing about the tax charge but if pastor
Wilson owes taxes he<BR>should pay them. I would have to give him the
benefit of doubt though as the<BR>bible requires."<BR><BR>Clarification:
as one of those involved in challenging the incorrect property<BR>tax
exemptions, I want to say that we ***never*** claimed that *Wilson*
owed<BR>taxes he hadn't paid. The issue is whether or not three specific
*Christ<BR>Church* parcels met the criteria for property tax exemptions that
had been<BR>granted on the basis of inaccurate and incomplete information
presented by<BR>Christ Church. And, the decision was that *no*, two of
the three parcels did<BR>NOT meet the criteria (there was a 50/50 split
decision on the third parcel, so<BR>the exemption was upheld for
now).<BR><BR>If you're really interested in learning more, I suggest you check
out:<BR><A
href="http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/Hearing/">http://www.tomandrodna.com/notonthepalouse/Hearing/</A><BR>Then,
you can form your own opinion based on facts.<BR><BR>You also wrote:<BR>"There
really should be two or three witnesses before a charge is brought<BR>against
an elder of the church. Now, a couple of guys yelling, "yeah,
what<BR>about that" do not constitute two, three or the snot load you have on
this list<BR>serve."<BR><BR>You lost me there (although I didn't miss the
insult) . . . please clarify what<BR>you're talking about.<BR><BR>You also
wrote:<BR>"May God pour out his grace upon You."<BR><BR>Right back at
you :-)<BR><BR><BR>Saundra Lund<BR>(who also happens to be a HUGE fan of
the most talented writer Joan Opyr, whom<BR>I'm proud to say has her roots
locally now)<BR>Moscow, ID<BR><BR>The only thing necessary for the triumph of
evil is for good people to do<BR>nothing.<BR>-Edmund
Burke<BR><BR><BR>_____________________________________________________<BR> List
services made available by First Step Internet, <BR> serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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<BR> <A
href="mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com">mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com</A><BR>ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BODY></HTML>