[Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

Wed Nov 16 10:52:50 PST 2016

ROTFLMAO!!!  You go, Gary!

I read from lots of sources I don’t agree with; unlike you, I don’t confine myself to an echo chamber when looking for information, knowledge and wisdom.  I’ve even been known to change my opinion when presented with solid info  :)  However, I tend to not waste my time reading from sites not worth lining a litter box with.

Since there are lots of reputable/credible sources you could have used to buttress your point, I wonder why you opted to go for the bottom of the barrel.

Saundra

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.

~ Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

From: g crabtree [mailto:direoutcome at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 10:38 AM
To: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

Aah, the scent of sunshine and lollipops! It's easy to understand that if you limit your information to the sources you agree with, you will always get the information you prefer to hear. Less stressful that way I suppose.

g

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> > wrote:

Ever heard the phrase, “Consider the source”? 

Because even a stopped clock can be right twice a day, I consider the source before I invest time in reading unknown sources.

Your pal & his web site flunked the smell test.

Saundra

All the beautiful sentiments in the world weigh less than a single lovely action.

~ James Russell Lowell

From: g crabtree [mailto:direoutcome at gmail.com <mailto:direoutcome at gmail.com> ] 
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 2:33 PM
To: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> >
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> >
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

I'm a mite confused. Is it your contention that the founders were keen to see the country governed through the popular vote? Perhaps you simply dislike people and organisations that have found the source of the article I posted useful and dismiss the information due to its tainted association? Either way, I guess I just didn't properly understand when Thomas Jefferson said "Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine percent." or when Alexander Hamilton remarked that “We are a Republic. Real Liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of Democracy" or even the short and sweet statement of Benjamin Rush that “A simple democracy is the devil's own government.”Perhaps you would be so kind as to point me to a source that meets your lofty standards that will support the notion that electing a president through a popularity contest is "the simple premise of our form of government."

g

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm> > wrote:

ROTFLMAO.  This might be sufficient for Gary, but probably wouldn’t be for many critical thinkers:

http://www.americantraditions.org/organizations.htm

Below is a list of organizations that support the Christian and American values to which this magazine is dedicated. All of them are considered worthy of support, and all of them make interesting and important information available to people. More will be added as they come to our attention. 

Alliance Defense Fund, headed by Alan Sears,  <http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/main/default.aspx> http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/main/default.aspx 

American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), Jay Alan Sekulow, Chief Counsel,  <http://www.aclj.org/> http://www.aclj.org. 

American Family Association (AFA), Donald E. Wildmon, Chairman:   <http://www.afa.net/> http://www.afa.net.   

Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, Peter LaBarbera, President,  <http://www.americansfortruth.com/> http://www.americansfortruth.com/ 

Concerned Women for America (CFA), Beverly LaHaye, Founder and Chairman:  <http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp> http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp. 

Coral Ridge Ministries,  Founded by the late, D. James Kennedy, Ph.D.:  <http://www.coralridge.org/> http://www.coralridge.org.  

David Horowitz Freedom Center, David Horowitz, President and Founder:  <http://www.horowitzfreedomcenter.org/> http://www.horowitzfreedomcenter.org  

Defend the Family - International, a project of Abiding Truth Ministries, Scott Lively, Founder:  <http://www.defendthefamily.com/> http://www.defendthefamily.com/.  

Discovery Institute, Bruce Chapman, President:  <http://www.discovery.org/> http://www.discovery.org. 

D. J. Connolly, Ph.D., Home Page:   <http://ttokarnak.home.att.net/Karnak.html> http://ttokarnak.home.att.net:80/Karnak.html 

Eagle Forum, Phyllis Schlafly, Founder:  <http://www.eagleforum.org/> http://www.eagleforum.org/

Family Research Council, Tony Perkins, President, :  <http://www.frc.org/> http://www.frc.org . 

Family Research Institute, Dr. Paul Cameron Chairman:  <http://www.familyresearchinst.org/> http://www.familyresearchinst.org

Focus on the Family, James C. Dobson, Ph.D., Founder and Chairman:   <http://www.family.org/> http://www.family.org. 

Institute for Religion and Democracy, Mark Tooley, President:  <http://www.theird.org/> http://www.theird.org/  

National Rifle Association (NRA),  President, Sandra S. Froman, CEO, Wayne LaPierre:  <http://www.nra.org/> http://www.nra.org/  

Public Advocate of the United states, Eugene Delgaudio, President:  <http://www.publicadvocateusa.org/> http://www.publicadvocateusa.org. 

Summit Ministries, Dr. David A. Noebel, President and Founder:  <http://www.summit.org/> http://www.summit.org/  

The Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), M. G. "Pat" Robertson, Founder and Chairman,  <http://www.cbn.com/> http://www.cbn.com. 

The Institute For Media Education, Judith A. Reisman, PH.D., Founder and President,  <http://www.drjudithreisman.com/> http://www.drjudithreisman.com/  

Traditional Values Coalition, Rev. Louis P. Sheldon, Chairman:  <http://www.traditionalvalues.org/> http://www.traditionalvalues.org.

Wall Builders, David Barton, Founder and President:  <http://www.wallbuilders.com/> http://www.wallbuilders.com.

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>  [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> ] On Behalf Of g crabtree
Sent: Monday, November 14, 2016 12:33 PM
To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com> >
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> >

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

Nonsense, you must have not been paying attention in your elementary social studies classes. Since you were going on about math however, you might like to add this short lesson on the origination of our nations governance to your list of required remedial reading:

Why Our Founders Feared a Democracy

http://www.americantraditions.org/Articles/Why%20Our%20Founders%20Feared%20a%20Democracy.htm <http://americantraditions.org/Articles/Why%20Our%20Founders%20Feared%20a%20Democracy.htm> 

The actual "simple premise" of our form of government is rule by the consent of the governed, a different thing entirely.

g

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 3:15 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com> > wrote:

The simple premise of our government is "Rule By Majority", Mr. Crabtree.

As such, if a majority of a state's residents live in town, guess from where the majority of that state's votes are going to originate.

Likewise, if the majority of the population of a state (like Wyoming) reside in its rural region, guess from where the majority of that state's votes are going to originate.

The majority of Latah County's residents live in Moscow.

Do the math, Mr. Crabtree.

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

 <http://www.moscowcares.com/> http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still.

But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,

If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon

On Nov 13, 2016, at 7:09 PM, g crabtree <direoutcome at gmail.com> wrote:

Well, I never have been, I see no sense in starting now. I firmly believe that the folks in fly over America deserve a little representation. Allowing the country's leadership to be solely decided by the folks in the major urban areas whose concerns are, as often as not, at odds with my own seems ill advised. It would seem that the framers saw it that way as well.

g

g

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 5:23 PM, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com <mailto:moscowcares at moscow.com> > wrote:

Yes.  Each, and every, state should adopt a system that awards their electoral votes in accordance with, and reflecting that state's popular vote . . . even the predominantly-left and left-leaning ones.  

This way we can enforce the value of each vote.

Are you with me, Mr. Crabtree?

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

 <http://www.moscowcares.com/> http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still.

But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,

If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon

On Nov 13, 2016, at 5:14 PM, g crabtree <direoutcome at gmail.com <mailto:direoutcome at gmail.com> > wrote:

And what is a republican vote in California, New York, Washington, or Illinois worth? A serious beating perhaps? With the EC rules as they stand the democrats went into this election with better than a hundred point advantage and whiffed it because of a bad campaign and a worse candidate. (not that the winners have anything much to brag about)

With the current political climate being what it is, I very much doubt that a call for a constitutional convention to amend or abolish the electoral collage will result in anything good for the snivelling party. I imagine that it could well turn into a cautionary tale of being careful what you wish for.

g

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com <mailto:thansen at moscow.com> > wrote:

Under an electoral college system, the vote of a Democrat in a predominantly-Republican state is virtually worthless.

That same vote possesses value in an election where the winner is determined strictly by the popular vote.

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

 <http://www.moscowcares.com/> http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen

Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still.

But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,

If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon

On Nov 13, 2016, at 3:07 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com> > wrote:

Yes - I am mixing apples (checks) and oranges (balances).  If it's any consolation i fully support equal rights and policies to reduce greenhouse emissions.  I voted for Hillary Clinton.  I'm likely on your side on all issues except maybe gun control which I oppose even as a non-gun owner.  V2020 doesn't handle discourse very well which is pretty much why there is rarely a healthy debate in this forum if any debate whatsoever.   I find it quite disingenuous after the fact for some on the left to be complaining about an EC system that both parties understand extremely well.  Then again, Trump bellowing non-stop that the system is rigged seemed to strike a chord with his voters, so I'm all in favor of the Dems adopting that similar strategy as well if they feel that will help them win elections.

-Scott

  _____  

From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com <mailto:sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> >
To: Ron Force <ronforce at gmail.com <mailto:ronforce at gmail.com> >; Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com <mailto:starbliss at gmail.com> >; Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com> > 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> >
Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

Scott,

Surely you know you are mixing apples and oranges here:

'My answer is that I fully support a system that provides adequate checks and balances between the various powers in play.  The EC does an exemplary job of that.  As far as the democratic process is concerned, I'm no fan of 'Majority Rule' since it results in codified bans on interracial marriages, bans on gay marriages, bans on trannies using restrooms, etc.  Thankfully our system can nullify the so-called democratic process before it cements the Tyranny of the Majority.'

The EC does an exemplary job giving small states disproportionate influence over presidential elections. It plays no role in preventing 'codified bans on interracial marriages, bans on gay marriages, bans on trannies using restrooms, etc.  Thankfully our system can nullify the so-called democratic process before it cements the Tyranny of the Majority.' If anything, as we will see, it can make these easier to codify. Watch the Republican majority and President have a go at these.

Sunil

  _____  

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>  <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> > on behalf of Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com> >
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 11:55 PM
To: Ron Force; Ted Moffett
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy 

If you want to get rid of the Electoral College to make it easier for your candidates to win, then follow the process to amend the Constitution.  Ted posits, 'it seems incredible to defend a system that would allow a president to be chosen based on winning 21.8% of the vote, and grants votes in some states far more weight than in other states, unless not fully supporting democratic one person one vote principles.'  My answer is that I fully support a system that provides adequate checks and balances between the various powers in play.  The EC does an exemplary job of that.  As far as the democratic process is concerned, I'm no fan of 'Majority Rule' since it results in codified bans on interracial marriages, bans on gay marriages, bans on trannies using restrooms, etc.  Thankfully our system can nullify the so-called democratic process before it cements the Tyranny of the Majority.

Take heart in that in the 2018 mid-term elections, the Democrats will pick up 4 Senate seats and 30 House seats as have been the average gain over the past 21 midterm elections for the party not occupying the White House.  Each party gets 8 years controlling the White House and a staggered 8 years controlling Congress.  I had fully expected that Democrats to *easily* retain the White House this year and was shocked that they had failed their normally solid base of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania none of which, I believe, had wound up in the Republican's win column in decades.  What went wrong with Hillary's messaging and right with Trumps messaging to turn all three of these states from blue to red?

-Scott

  _____  

From: Ron Force <ronforce at gmail.com <mailto:ronforce at gmail.com> >
To: Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com <mailto:starbliss at gmail.com> > 
Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> >; Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com> >
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

And slavery had a lot to do with the EC: https://newrepublic.com/article/138631/terrible-skewed-anachronistic-electoral-college-gave-us-trump

 <https://newrepublic.com/article/138631/terrible-skewed-anachronistic-electoral-college-gave-us-trump> 

 <https://newrepublic.com/article/138631/terrible-skewed-anachronistic-electoral-college-gave-us-trump> How the Terrible, Skewed, Anachronistic Electoral College Gave Us Trump

newrepublic.com <http://newrepublic.com> 

Once again, a Democrat has won the popular vote but lost the election. It is time to throw out this badly outdated institution.

On Nov 13, 2016 11:45 AM, "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com <mailto:starbliss at gmail.com> > wrote:

On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com <mailto:scooterd408 at hotmail.com> > wrote:

This is exactly why the brilliant framers came up with the Electoral College as a check / balance of not allowing Congress to select a president (except in an Electoral College tie) and not allowing a president to be elected solely by popular vote which can be heavily skewed by the more populous states.  Hillary and company were well aware of how the system elects a president and yet they still shockingly blew Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania to a hack like Trump who didn't even have the support of his own party.

-Scott

"... not allowing a president to be elected solely by popular vote which can be heavily skewed by the more populous states."

By this logic, perhaps we should elect Idaho's governor in a manner that prevents Ada county from a "heavily skewed" impact.  I've never heard any complaints that Idaho's governor is elected based on a popular vote, one vote one person, regardless of whether they are from a heavily populated county, like Ada, or a much smaller populated county like Latah.  

Perhaps you are just stirring the pot here, because it seems incredible to defend a system that would allow a president to be chosen based on winning 21.8% of the vote, and grants votes in some states far more weight than in other states, unless not fully supporting democratic one person one vote principles.

Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
------------------------------ ----------------

Text below from article at website below:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ tyler-lewis/why-we-should- abolish-the_1_b_8961256.html <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tyler-lewis/why-we-should-abolish-the_1_b_8961256.html> 

Tyler Lewis

3) A Person Can Become President By Winning Only 21.8% of the Popular Vote

As previously stated, the Electoral College is a winner take all system. If a candidate wins the popular vote of a state by a just a single vote, he generally receives all the electoral votes of that state (excluding Maine and Nebraska). Combine this with the fact that smaller states receive more electoral votes per person than larger states, and it becomes possible to win the presidency by winning just 21.8% of the American public’s vote. 

According to a study <https://www.squarefree.com/2004/11/01/winning-an-election-with-22-of-the-popular-vote/>  done by Jesse Ruderman, “A presidential candidate could be elected with as a little as 21.8% of the popular vote by getting just over 50% of the votes in DC and each of 39 small states. This is true even when everyone votes and there are only two candidates. In other words, a candidate could lose with 78.2% of the popular vote by getting just under 50% in small states and 100% in large states.”

------------------------------ --------------

Each person's vote should be weighted the same, unless you object somehow to fair representative democracy.  The electoral college sometimes dilutes the votes of US citizens when we get an outcome like Bush v. Gore 2000, or Trump v. Hillary 2016, as this excerpt from the article further explains: 

As fairvote.org <http://fairvote.org/>  explains, “For instance, each individual vote in Wyoming counts nearly four times as much in the Electoral College as each individual vote in Texas. This is because Wyoming has three (3) electoral votes for a population of 532,668 citizens (as of 2008 Census Bureau estimates) and Texas has thirty-two (32) electoral votes for a population of almost 25 million. By dividing the population by electoral votes, we can see that Wyoming has one “elector” for every 177,556 people and Texas has one “elector” for about every 715,499.”

By giving smaller states more electoral votes per person than larger states, disparity was created across the nation in regards to the significance of each citizens’ vote. With the Electoral College, the value of a vote depends on what state a person lives in.

  _____  

From: Nicholas Gier <ngier006 at gmail.com <mailto:ngier006 at gmail.com> >
To: vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com> > 
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2016 11:31 AM
Subject: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

NY Times, Nov. 11

Hillary Clinton didn’t just win the popular vote. She won it by a substantial margin. 

By the time all the ballots are counted, she seems likely to be ahead by more than 2 million votes and more than 1.5 percentage points,  <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=pMJKdIFVI6pehkIEQ5/wRr6MZeaebV9ey6JTj6EssbnkGPFwrHQAyyTmM3EOBy+A6iORXC/pWMs=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> according to my Times colleague Nate Cohn. She will have won by a wider percentage margin than not only Al Gore in  <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=gTrU3W/9enTENHkvqbCdzZgkiTHF9UbCDD4W0GhG39P5Eyf7TltaK0BpBJHmP9mI6/jeDZp5NGKCpVGSwJxHiepw3hduVzKff3iiQHZx7X4=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> 2000 but also Richard Nixon in  <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=gTrU3W/9enTENHkvqbCdzZgkiTHF9UbCDD4W0GhG39P5Eyf7TltaK0BpBJHmP9mI6PkjHcl220G0ujhkK0RiYepw3hduVzKff3iiQHZx7X4=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> 1968 and John F. Kennedy in  <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=gTrU3W/9enTENHkvqbCdzZgkiTHF9UbCDD4W0GhG39P5Eyf7TltaK0BpBJHmP9mI6PkjHcl220GCpVGSwJxHiepw3hduVzKff3iiQHZx7X4=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> 1960. 

-- 

A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. 

-Greek proverb

“Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed immaturity. Immaturity is the inability to use one’s understanding without guidance from another. This immaturity is self- imposed when its cause lies not in lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage to use it without guidance from another. Sapere Aude! ‘Have courage to use your own understand-ing!—that is the motto of enlightenment.

--Immanuel Kant

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