[Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore, Nixon, Kennedy

g crabtree direoutcome at gmail.com
Sun Nov 13 17:14:07 PST 2016 

And what is a republican vote in California, New York, Washington, or
Illinois worth? A serious beating perhaps? With the EC rules as they stand
the democrats went into this election with better than a hundred point
advantage and whiffed it because of a bad campaign and a worse candidate.
(not that the winners have anything much to brag about)

With the current political climate being what it is, I very much doubt that
a call for a constitutional convention to amend or abolish the electoral
collage will result in anything good for the snivelling party. I imagine
that it could well turn into a cautionary tale of being careful what you
wish for.

g

On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 3:23 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

> Under an electoral college system, the vote of a Democrat in a
> predominantly-Republican state is virtually worthless.
>
> That same vote possesses value in an election where the winner is
> determined strictly by the popular vote.
>
> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still.
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill,
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
> On Nov 13, 2016, at 3:07 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes - I am mixing apples (checks) and oranges (balances).  If it's any
> consolation i fully support equal rights and policies to reduce greenhouse
> emissions.  I voted for Hillary Clinton.  I'm likely on your side on all
> issues except maybe gun control which I oppose even as a non-gun owner.
> V2020 doesn't handle discourse very well which is pretty much why there is
> rarely a healthy debate in this forum if any debate whatsoever.   I find it
> quite disingenuous after the fact for some on the left to be complaining
> about an EC system that both parties understand extremely well.  Then
> again, Trump bellowing non-stop that the system is rigged seemed to strike
> a chord with his voters, so I'm all in favor of the Dems adopting that
> similar strategy as well if they feel that will help them win elections.
> -Scott
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> *To:* Ron Force <ronforce at gmail.com>; Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>;
> Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2016 9:41 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than
> Gore, Nixon, Kennedy
>
> Scott,
>
> Surely you know you are mixing apples and oranges here:
>
> 'My answer is that I fully support a system that provides adequate checks
> and balances between the various powers in play.  The EC does an exemplary
> job of that.  As far as the democratic process is concerned, I'm no fan of
> 'Majority Rule' since it results in codified bans on interracial marriages,
> bans on gay marriages, bans on trannies using restrooms, etc.  Thankfully
> our system can nullify the so-called democratic process before it cements
> the Tyranny of the Majority.'
>
> The EC does an exemplary job giving small states disproportionate influence
> over presidential elections. It plays no role in preventing 'codified
> bans on interracial marriages, bans on gay marriages, bans on trannies
> using restrooms, etc.  Thankfully our system can nullify the so-called
> democratic process before it cements the Tyranny of the Majority.' If
> anything, as we will see, it can make these easier to codify. Watch the
> Republican majority and President have a go at these.
>
> Sunil
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> on
> behalf of Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 12, 2016 11:55 PM
> *To:* Ron Force; Ted Moffett
> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than
> Gore, Nixon, Kennedy
>
> If you want to get rid of the Electoral College to make it easier for your
> candidates to win, then follow the process to amend the Constitution.  Ted
> posits, 'it seems incredible to defend a system that would allow a
> president to be chosen based on winning 21.8% of the vote, and grants votes
> in some states far more weight than in other states, unless not fully
> supporting democratic one person one vote principles.'  My answer is that I
> fully support a system that provides adequate checks and balances between
> the various powers in play.  The EC does an exemplary job of that.  As far
> as the democratic process is concerned, I'm no fan of 'Majority Rule' since
> it results in codified bans on interracial marriages, bans on gay
> marriages, bans on trannies using restrooms, etc.  Thankfully our system
> can nullify the so-called democratic process before it cements the Tyranny
> of the Majority.
>
> Take heart in that in the 2018 mid-term elections, the Democrats will pick
> up 4 Senate seats and 30 House seats as have been the average gain over the
> past 21 midterm elections for the party not occupying the White House.
> Each party gets 8 years controlling the White House and a staggered 8 years
> controlling Congress.  I had fully expected that Democrats to *easily*
> retain the White House this year and was shocked that they had failed their
> normally solid base of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania none of which,
> I believe, had wound up in the Republican's win column in decades.  What
> went wrong with Hillary's messaging and right with Trumps messaging to turn
> all three of these states from blue to red?
>
> -Scott
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Ron Force <ronforce at gmail.com>
> *To:* Ted Moffett <starbliss at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>; Scott Dredge <
> scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 12, 2016 8:30 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than
> Gore, Nixon, Kennedy
>
> And slavery had a lot to do with the EC: https://newrepublic.com/
> article/138631/terrible-skewed-anachronistic-electoral-college-gave-us-
> trump
>
> <https://newrepublic.com/article/138631/terrible-skewed-anachronistic-electoral-college-gave-us-trump>
> How the Terrible, Skewed, Anachronistic Electoral College Gave Us Trump
> <https://newrepublic.com/article/138631/terrible-skewed-anachronistic-electoral-college-gave-us-trump>
> newrepublic.com
> Once again, a Democrat has won the popular vote but lost the election. It
> is time to throw out this badly outdated institution.
>
> On Nov 13, 2016 11:45 AM, "Ted Moffett" <starbliss at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> This is exactly why the brilliant framers came up with the Electoral
> College as a check / balance of not allowing Congress to select a president
> (except in an Electoral College tie) and not allowing a president to be
> elected solely by popular vote which can be heavily skewed by the more
> populous states.  Hillary and company were well aware of how the system
> elects a president and yet they still shockingly blew Wisconsin, Michigan,
> and Pennsylvania to a hack like Trump who didn't even have the support of
> his own party.
>
> -Scott
>
>
> "... not allowing a president to be elected solely by popular vote which
> can be heavily skewed by the more populous states."
>
> By this logic, perhaps we should elect Idaho's governor in a manner that
> prevents Ada county from a "heavily skewed" impact.  I've never heard any
> complaints that Idaho's governor is elected based on a popular vote, one
> vote one person, regardless of whether they are from a heavily populated
> county, like Ada, or a much smaller populated county like Latah.
>
> Perhaps you are just stirring the pot here, because it seems incredible to
> defend a system that would allow a president to be chosen based on winning
> 21.8% of the vote, and grants votes in some states far more weight than in
> other states, unless not fully supporting democratic one person one vote
> principles.
>
> Vision2020 Post: Ted Moffett
> ------------------------------ ----------------
> Text below from article at website below:
>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ tyler-lewis/why-we-should-
> abolish-the_1_b_8961256.html
> <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tyler-lewis/why-we-should-abolish-the_1_b_8961256.html>
> <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/tyler-lewis>Tyler Lewis
> *3) A Person Can Become President By Winning Only 21.8% of the Popular
> Vote*
>
> As previously stated, the Electoral College is a winner take all system.
> If a candidate wins the popular vote of a state by a just a single vote, he
> generally receives all the electoral votes of that state (excluding Maine
> and Nebraska). Combine this with the fact that smaller states receive more
> electoral votes per person than larger states, and it becomes possible to
> win the presidency by winning just 21.8% of the American public’s vote.
> According to a study
> <https://www.squarefree.com/2004/11/01/winning-an-election-with-22-of-the-popular-vote/>
> done by Jesse Ruderman, “A presidential candidate could be elected with as
> a little as 21.8% of the popular vote by getting just over 50% of the votes
> in DC and each of 39 small states. This is true even when everyone votes
> and there are only two candidates. In other words, a candidate could lose
> with 78.2% of the popular vote by getting just under 50% in small states
> and 100% in large states.”
> ------------------------------ --------------
> Each person's vote should be weighted the same, unless you object somehow
> to fair representative democracy.  The electoral college sometimes dilutes
> the votes of US citizens when we get an outcome like Bush v. Gore 2000, or
> Trump v. Hillary 2016, as this excerpt from the article further explains:
> <http://www.huffingtonpost.com/author/tyler-lewis>
> As fairvote.org explains, “For instance, each individual vote in Wyoming
> counts nearly four times as much in the Electoral College as each
> individual vote in Texas. This is because Wyoming has three (3) electoral
> votes for a population of 532,668 citizens (as of 2008 Census Bureau
> estimates) and Texas has thirty-two (32) electoral votes for a population
> of almost 25 million. By dividing the population by electoral votes, we can
> see that Wyoming has one “elector” for every 177,556 people and Texas has
> one “elector” for about every 715,499.”
> By giving smaller states more electoral votes per person than larger
> states, disparity was created across the nation in regards to the
> significance of each citizens’ vote. With the Electoral College, the value
> of a vote depends on what state a person lives in.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Nicholas Gier <ngier006 at gmail.com>
> *To:* vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2016 11:31 AM
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Hillary Won by 2 Million Votes! More than Gore,
> Nixon, Kennedy
>
> NY Times, Nov. 11
>
> Hillary Clinton didn’t just win the popular vote. She won it by a
> substantial margin.
> By the time all the ballots are counted, she seems likely to be ahead by
> more than 2 million votes and more than 1.5 percentage points, according
> to
> <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=pMJKdIFVI6pehkIEQ5/wRr6MZeaebV9ey6JTj6EssbnkGPFwrHQAyyTmM3EOBy+A6iORXC/pWMs=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> my
> Times colleague Nate Cohn. She will have won by a wider percentage margin
> than not only Al Gore in 2000
> <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=gTrU3W/9enTENHkvqbCdzZgkiTHF9UbCDD4W0GhG39P5Eyf7TltaK0BpBJHmP9mI6/jeDZp5NGKCpVGSwJxHiepw3hduVzKff3iiQHZx7X4=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> but
> also Richard Nixon in 1968
> <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=gTrU3W/9enTENHkvqbCdzZgkiTHF9UbCDD4W0GhG39P5Eyf7TltaK0BpBJHmP9mI6PkjHcl220G0ujhkK0RiYepw3hduVzKff3iiQHZx7X4=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741> and
> John F. Kennedy in 1960
> <http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=gTrU3W/9enTENHkvqbCdzZgkiTHF9UbCDD4W0GhG39P5Eyf7TltaK0BpBJHmP9mI6PkjHcl220GCpVGSwJxHiepw3hduVzKff3iiQHZx7X4=&campaign_id=69&instance_id=86172&segment_id=98021&user_id=4a205c5a62f3a4293ec5342704c0aac0&regi_id=29749741>.
>
>
> --
>
> A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they
> shall never sit in.
>
> -Greek proverb
>
> “Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed immaturity.
> Immaturity is the inability to use one’s understanding without guidance
> from another. This immaturity is self- imposed when its cause lies not in
> lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage to use it without
> guidance from another. Sapere Aude! ‘Have courage to use your own
> understand-ing!—that is the motto of enlightenment.
>
> --Immanuel Kant
>
>
>
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