[Vision2020] Political correctness run amok
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Mon May 5 09:19:11 PDT 2014
Sue,
You're right, that rant wasn't directed at you, or at anyone in particular. I tend to converse on this list, most others tend to debate, it seems.
Paul
________________________________
From: Sue Hovey <suehovey at moscow.com>
To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; Sunil <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, May 5, 2014 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run amok
Paul, I never said there should, but possibly your rant isn’t
directed at me, specifically. You come close to the point Pitts makes in
the column and I paraphrase: We rail at Sterling and turn our backs on the
overt racism that permeates our social system and is so terribly obvious when
one considers the outcomes.
Sue
From: Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 9:48 PM
To: Sue Hovey ; Scott
Dredge ; Sunil ; viz
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run
amok
Why should there be such real-world consequences
for a conversation he had with his girlfriend that he did not expect to be
broadcast globally? That's the point that I think is being missed in the
race to condemn him for his views. It's not like he said all this at a
press conference.
Not to mention whether or not this reactionary
holier-than-thou attitude I see plastered all over the news actually helps the
situation. If racists could discuss their views without immediate backlash
and real-world consequences, we might be able to have a helpful dialog.
Anyone in power with views that someone somewhere might consider racist are
going to make damn sure they don't get recorded saying anything like that
now. Does that actually help? This reminds me of an NPR segment I
listened to concerning pedophiles who had not acted on any of their impulses
looking for a way to discuss their views without being condemned for them.
Same situation there. Now we are in a situation where a person might have
grown up racist and is struggling with it and now they can't mention it to
anyone or they might lose their job or the prize they earned or fail to get
their next promotion or whatever. How does that actually help?
In
some ways, people are becoming more fundamentalist about this than they are
about religion.
And as for the bell metaphor, sure we can't unring
it. But we could not let it provoke an immediate Pavlovian response in
us.
Paul
On 05/04/2014 08:29 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:
>Scott,
>
>The whole issue of racism for me is that so very often I need to examine my own responses. I could take some comfort in the fact that most of my generation is racist whether we acknowledge it or not. But I try not to do that. And when I hear someone my age begin a statement with the assertion, “I’m not racist, but...” I generally conclude they are and are in a self delusional mode. But as you say, we cannot unring that bell, so what comes next is a result of what has gone before and there seems not to be a productive reason to look for a way to rationalize, excuse, or spring to Sterling’s defense. And certainly I have no desire to do that. I appreciated Leonard Pitts’ article in today’s Tribune, in which he discusses the racist comments of Sterling and Bundy. He concludes with the words, “But many of us don’t really understand what they purport to condemn. Otherwise how could there be all this noise
about that which doesn’t matter and silence about that which does. Examples to which he pointed: black vs. white prison sentences for similar crimes, the execution rates of minority males, arrests based on skin color, the list goes on.....
>
>And thanks for the kudos, deserved or not.
>
>Sue
>
>
>From: Scott Dredge
>Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2014 12:31 AM
>To: Sue Hovey ; Sunil ; viz
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Political correctness run amok
> Sue,
>
>Kudos to you for not knee jerking like so many others
when anyone cries 'racism' on a list server. I'm not all that thrilled
either about a private conversation being turned into a viral sensation and a
public relations nightmare. But there is no way to unring this bell and
the NBA needs to protect their billion dollar empire so things just move on to
the next phase of issuing the max penalty levied by the NBA (no brainer as
Donovan pointed out) and ultimately forcing Sterling to sell the team.
I'm guessing that V. Stiviano won't be able to find another billionaire sugar
daddy but might be able to land a good size payday for a tell all book.
She might also get a pretty penny for posing in a nudie magazine or
two.
>
>-Scott
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: suehovey at moscow.com
>To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Date: Fri, 2
May 2014 17:56:51 -0700
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run
amok
>
>
>Sure, I know that. And Tinker wasn’t a good example for me to use for that reason. But, I still think the application of the principal is the same. Now folks are calling it a privacy issue. That’s interesting. A goodly number are really selective about what constitutes a right to privacy. If it’s a woman’s right to choose (for example) there is no right to privacy, they say.
>
>Sue
>
>
>From: Sunil
>Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 9:22 AM
>To: vision 2020
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run amok
> Sue,
>
>The First Amendment was implicated in Tinker because
the school board is a state actor. It's not implicated here because the NBA is
not a state actor.
>
>Sunil
>
>
>
>________________________________
> From: suehovey at moscow.com
>To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>Date: Tue, 29
Apr 2014 16:09:39 -0700
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run
amok
>
>
>But in Tinker v. Des Moines SD the issue was all about 1st Amendment Rights and did not involve government censorship or prosecution...made clear in the case...nevertheless the ruling was her first amendment rights “did not stop at the school house door.”
>sue h
>From: Scott Dredge
>Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 3:50 PM
>To: viz
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run amok
> Donald Sterling's First Amendment rights are fully intact as he's not facing censorship from the government and he's also not facing prosecution for what he said in private. Apparently on the same tape, Sterling said 'I love black people', but the conversation needs to be taking in totality and full context and not reduced, as usual, to only a few sound bytes that resonate with Tom Hansen rendering a verdict & decree.
>
>Also
interesting to note is that the NAACP was planning to give Sterling a 2nd
lifetime achievement award on May 15th. Sterling received his first
NAACP award 5 years ago.
>
>http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/04/donald-sterling-naacp-award
>
>All
of this is so...what's the right phrase...black and white?
>
>-Scott
>
>
>
>On Apr 29, 2014, at 3:19 PM, "Sue Hovey" <suehovey at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>
>Frankly, I think he’s a “dirty old man” with a great looking young woman friend, and his prejudices and bigotry extend far beyond what he has just said. Even so, it would seem to me he has a First Amendment right to say what he thinks. Not knowing what the bylaws of the NBA say to this issue, I do wonder how they can ban him from games when he owns the team, and I imagine the courts will be asked to resolve that issue. If the KKK has a First Amendment right to march down the streets of American cities (and I don’t argue they do) then maybe Magic Johnson should just have to “suck it up.” I believe the First Amendment is precious...and yes, there are consequences for speech that harms, but we have to be very wary of consequences for something that is purely speech and not overt behavior, which is discrimination and often illegal.
>>
>>Perhaps the NBA could look into the Cliven Bundy case and remove him from his ranch just as Sterling has been removed from the Arena. Well maybe their bylaws don’t extend that far. Damn.
>>
>>Sue H.
>>
>>
>>From: Ron Force
>>Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 2:14 PM
>>To: Gary Crabtree ; Paul Rumelhart
>>Cc: Vision 2020
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Political correctness run amok
>> It wasn't just "black people" dude, it was Magic Johnson!
>>
>>Ron Force
>>Moscow Idaho USA
>>On Tuesday, April 29, 2014 1:59 PM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>The guy should be thanking his lucky stars that he wasn't illegally taped stating that he believed that marriage should be between a man and a women exclusively. They would be calling for a total confiscation of all his worldly goods and a summary execution.
>>>
>>>g
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>Donald Sterling has now been banned for life from games and practices by the NBA and fined $2.5 million dollars. Why? Because he was recorded saying bad things about black people in a PRIVATE conversation he was having with his girlfriend. One that was very likely recorded illegally. Does this strike anyone here as being over-the-top? Or am I the only one not on the "OMG! He said bad things about black people!" bandwagon?
>>>>
>>>>I hate that we have become a nation of
nattering
ninnies.
>>>>
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>>
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