Dr. Gier writes:
<Just "take Jesus into your heart" and that's it. There is no commitment
to good works or a life of virtue;>
This is my understanding of Christianity as well. In terms of < indeed, good works in themselves are
sinful.>, I hadn't heard that. Can you expand on this? Seems like 'good works' would be optional and not a penalty.
I believe Jesus of Nazareth walked the Earth. This was only 2000 years ago even conceding that the records from the time frame lack the proper level of documentation and revision control, there is enough info from various different sources to believe that the existence of Jesus in human form is more than plausible.
In terms of gun toting Bible thumpers, this should be split into simply non-qualified 'gun toting' as 'Bible thumper' is separate stand alone column in the matrix. Combining them is as bad as combining 'religion & ethics' when the two are mutually exclusive.
Hopefully your 'End of my sermon for the day' statement doesn't equate to Tom's 'nuff said' attempted shutting down a conversion. I'd be happy to hear your reply.
-Scott
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2014 09:59:06 -0800
From: ngier006 at gmail.com
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Kentucky Baptists use gun giveaways to lure unchurched to Christ
Hi Paul,
A huge majority of Bible scholars agree that Jesus of Nazareth did in fact exist, and they also agree on some very basic teachings came from his own mouth--one of the them being an ethics of compassion and nonviolence. Therefore, your agnosticism on these issues is not well founded.
As you can read in the long news item, the main critics are other Christians, who rightly claim that this fascination with guns (even for legitimate killing) is not the way to bring people to the Christian faith. Indeed, it undermines the essentials of the Gospel. Those who preach the "prosperity" Gospel are in the same boat. The last thing that Jesus was interested in was the creation of wealth; in fact, he said that it was a barrier to salvation.
Finally, the boasting that so many male gun lovers have been converted is the most galling to me. Non-Christians believers around the world are shocked that it takes so little to become an evangelical Christian. Just "take Jesus into your heart" and that's it. There is no commitment to good works or a life of virtue; indeed, good works in themselves are sinful. I'll take Buddhism, Hinduism, or Islam any day instead of this cheap and easy grace.
End of my sermon for the day.
Nick
On Wed, Mar 5, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
I have no idea what Christ (if he ever existed) would think about
any of this. Guns, though they can be used by violent people, are
not violent in and of themselves. They can be used for hunting
(not sure what Christ's views on that would be), as well as target
shooting and as emergency tools useful for saving your life should
violence by perpetrated on you.
I do get that many people view them as a symbol of mindless
violence, but they don't have to be.
Paul
On 03/04/2014 07:37 PM, Nicholas Gier wrote:
I'm re-sending this because it
did not show up on the thread.
Hi Paul,
It's big news because of the juxtaposition of a
pacifist Christ, who said "No more of this" when a
disciple attacked the high priest with his sword, and
gun-totting faux preachers. That's why it is also big news
for Buddhist monks to be advocating the
killing of Muslims in Burma.
Millions of Christians around the world would find this
very, very sad news. They would also cry out "No more of
this" in Christ's name.
One of the conclusions of my book on religious violence
is that the followers of the Buddha and the Christ have
been responsible for the most religiously motivated
violence in human history.
Nick
On Tue, Mar 4, 2014 at 1:09 PM, Paul
Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
wrote:
I would
expect them to follow the applicable law on the
subject. If that requires a background check, then I
would expect them to perform one. If they are following
the law, then I support their right to gift their
property to whomever they choose.
Paul
From:
Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com>
To:
Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc:
Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>;
Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, March 4, 2014 12:07 PM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] Kentucky Baptists use gun
giveaways to lure unchurched to Christ
Absolutely no background checks
whatsoever!
Do you support a church giving away an
assault rifle to a mentally unstable person,
Mr. Rumelhart?
Seeya 'round town, Moscow,
because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you
can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are
telling you still.
But first you must learn how to
smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks
on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Mar 4, 2014, at 11:04 AM, Paul
Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
wrote:
I know it's a strange and sometimes
terrifying world out there, but some
people actually do like to hunt and/or
go target shooting. Some people
simply collect guns, like others do
stamps or 70's era campaign buttons.
Others like free stuff, no matter what
it is.
Presumably they would draw in more
people from Kentucky with guns as a
giveaway rather than, say, Magic the
Gathering cards or ThinkGeek gift
cards.
I'm not even sure why this is news
other than the "OMG! Guns!" factor, or
the "Ha, Ha! Rednecks!" factor.
Paul
From:
Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
To:
Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent:
Tuesday, March 4, 2014 10:41
AM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] Kentucky
Baptists use gun giveaways to
lure unchurched to Christ
You jus' ain't right
with the Lord 'til you
done squeezed the trigger
and discharged a
full-automatic, huh boyz?
Seeya 'round
town, Moscow, because
. . .
"Moscow Cares"
(the most fun you can
have with your pants
on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's room
at the top they are
telling you still.
But first you
must learn how to
smile as you kill,
If you want to
be like the folks on
the hill."
- John Lennon
On Mar 4, 2014, at 10:02
AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
wrote:
Courtesy
of the Courier
Journal
(Louisville,
Kentucky) at:
http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20140228/FEATURES10/302280129/Kentucky-Baptists-use-gun-giveaways-lure-unchurched-men-Christ?gcheck=1&nclick_check=1
-----------------------------------
Kentucky
Baptists use
gun giveaways
to lure
unchurched to
Christ
In
an effort its
spokesman has
described as
“outreach to
rednecks,” the
Kentucky
Baptist
Convention is
leading
“Second
Amendment
Celebrations,”
where churches
around the
state give
away guns as
door prizes to
lure in
nonbelievers
in hopes of
converting
them to
Christ.
As
many as 1,000
people are
expected at
the next one,
on Thursday at
Lone Oak
Baptist Church
in Paducah,
where they
will be given
a free steak
dinner and the
chance to win
one of 25
handguns, long
guns and
shotguns.
The
goal is to
“point people
to Christ,”
the church
says in a
flier. Chuck
McAlister, an
ex-pastor,
master
storyteller
and former
Outdoor
Channel
hunting show
host who
presides at
the events as
the Kentucky
Baptist
Convention’s
team leader
for
evangelism,
said 1,678 men
made
“professions
of faith” at
about 50 such
events last
year, most of
them in
Kentucky.
In
Louisville, he
said, more
than 500
people showed
up on a snowy
January day
for a gun
giveaway at
Highview
Baptist
Church, and 61
made decisions
to seek
salvation.
McAlister’s
boss, Paul
Chitwood, the
Kentucky
Baptist
Convention’s
executive
director, said
such results
speak for
themselves.
“It’s been
very
effective,” he
said in an
interview.
But
other clergy
question what
guns and gun
rights have to
do with with
sharing the
Gospel.
“How
ironic to use
guns to lure
men in to hear
a message
about Jesus,
who said, ‘Put
away the
sword,’ ” said
the Rev. Joe
Phelps, pastor
of
Louisville’s
independent
Highland
Baptist
Church.
“Giveaways
for God” seem
wrong, he
said. “Can you
picture Jesus
giving away
guns, or
toasters or
raffle
tickets? ...
He gave away
bread once,
but that was
as a sign, not
a sales
pitch.”
Nancy
Jo Kemper,
pastor of New
Union Church
in Versailles
and the former
director of
the Kentucky
Council of
Churches,
said:
“Churches
should not be
encouraging
people in
their
communities to
arm themselves
against their
neighbors, but
to love their
neighbors, as
instructed by
Jesus.”
“Second
Amendment
Celebrations”
in church make
a “travesty”
of that
message, she
said, adding,
“How terrible
it would be if
one of those
guns given
away at a
church were to
cause the
death of an
innocent
victim.”
McAlister,
60, who
pastored
churches in
five states
before taking
on the role of
traveling
evangelist,
concedes that
neither guns
nor gun rights
are part of
the Gospel.
But he said he
uses the love
of guns and
hunting in
Kentucky as a
“bridge to
unchurched men
so they will
hear what we
have to say.”
'Outreach
to rednecks'
In
an article
titled “God,
guns and good
ol’ boys,”
Roger Alford,
the Kentucky
Baptist
Convention’s
communication
director,
described
McAlister’s
work as
“outreach to
rednecks.”
McAlister,
an avid hunter
who owns more
than 30
firearms,
describes it
as “affinity
evangelism,”
in which
preachers
reach out to
potential
converts based
on their
common
interest in a
sport or
hobby.
“The
day of hanging
a banner in
front of your
church and
saying you’re
having a
revival and
expecting the
community to
show up is
over,” said
McAlister, who
hosted the
religious-themed
“Adventure
Bound
Outdoors” on
the Outdoor
Channel for 16
years.
“You
have to know
the hook that
will attract
people, and
hunting is
huge in
Kentucky,” he
said. “So we
get in there
and burp and
scratch and
talk about the
right to bear
arms and that
stuff.”
He
said he can
understand
that some
people have a
problem with
giving away
guns at
churches,
“given the
misuse of guns
and our moral
decline.” But,
he said, “we
certainly
don’t advocate
violence. We
are advocating
guns for
hunting and
protection
only.”
Chitwood,
a bow hunter
who
occasionally
hunts with a
gun, said, “I
don’t think
hunting is
inconsistent
with the
Gospel in any
way. A lot of
guys in
Kentucky
hunt.”
He
also minimized
the potential
that one of
the guns could
be used for
harm. “You
could buy a
car and run
somebody over
with it,” he
said.
Asked
what Jesus
would think of
the gun
giveaways,
McAlister
said, “I don’t
know, but he
was pretty
handy with the
whip when he
ran the
money-changers
out of the
temple.”
The
guns are
donated by
local
businesses and
presented
briefly to the
winners in
church, so
they can be
photographed
with their
prize. For
legal and
liability
reasons, the
firearms are
taken back and
must be
reclaimed at a
local gun
shop, where
the winner
must pass a
federal
background
check.
The
National Rifle
Association
declined to
comment. So
did the
Southern
Baptist
Theological
Seminary,
whose chief
spokesman,
James Smith,
said only, “I
don’t think
we’re a good
fit for this
story.”
Gun
enthusiast for
God
The
events seem
like political
rallies/prayer
meetings,
according to a
video on
YouTube of a
men’s wildlife
supper on Feb.
4, 2013, at
Silverdale
Baptist Church
in
Chattanooga,
Tenn.
Wearing
a camouflage
shirt and
frayed cap,
McAlister
ambled onto
the stage,
where he was
surrounded by
stuffed game
and firearms.
“How
many of y’all
own guns?” he
asked in his
South Carolina
accent. “Lemme
see a show of
hands.”
“That
is awesome,”
he said, as
the hands went
up. “We’ve got
an army right
here!”
McAlister
sought to win
the souls of
the unchurched
by appealing
to their love
of hunting and
enmity toward
gun control.
For 30
minutes, he
mentioned
nothing about
God or Jesus.
Instead,
he leaned on
his rifle and
talked about
his love for
the outdoors,
about
patriotism and
about his
“Daddy” and
“Granddaddy,”
who he said
took him
hunting as a
child and
taught him to
“work hard, to
be honest and
to look a man
in the eye
when shaking
his hand.”
He
derided gun
control. “It’s
not the gun,
it’s the man
behind the
gun,” he said,
“and criminals
don’t care
about a bunch
of rules.”
He
told hunting
stories and
jokes —
including
about how he
had to refer
to
“harvesting”
deer on the
Outdoor
Channel to be
“politically
correct” but
now can say:
“We don’t
‘harvest
deer.’ We kill
the suckers!”
He
spoke without
notes,
prowling the
stage in a
headset,
taking the
crowd back to
the soybean
fields where
he hunted with
his kin and
learned
important life
lessons.
“I
remember
walking across
a field one
day when
Granddaddy
asked me why
two bucks
don’t go off
to rut and two
roosters don’t
form a covey.
He said, ‘Do
you know why
that is? It’s
because
animals have
more sense
than some
people.’ ”
The
crowd erupted
in laughter,
and he moved
in to close
the deal.
“There
is only one
path to know
the God who
made the great
outdoors, and
that is
through his
son, Jesus
Christ,” he
bellowed. “My
friends, you
listen to me
and you listen
carefully,” he
said, lowering
his voice and
turning
serious.
“I
am here to
tell you there
is nothing
more, nothing
else and
nothing
better. Jesus
is the only
cure. Jesus is
the only hope.
That may not
be politically
correct, but I
don’t give a
rip about
political
correctness,”
he said.
“Because it’s
true.”
His
hunt for souls
produced a
huge bounty —
103 men
reportedly
made
“salvation
decisions”
accepting
Christ as
their savior.
'Camo-casual'
services
At
Paducah’s Lone
Oak Baptist
Church, which
will host
Thursday’s
event, the
Rev. Dan
Summerlin said
there has been
some “push
back” from
people who are
opposed to
firearms.
“Any
time you try
something
different
there will be
bashers,” he
said. The
church, whose
motto is “Real
People Serving
the Real God,”
will also
offer a
“camo-casual”
service
Sunday.
Summerlin
said he has
received some
calls and
notes from
people who
lost loved
ones at Heath
High School,
12 miles to
the west, when
Michael
Carneal opened
fire on a
group of
praying
students in
1997, killing
three and
injuring five
others.
“My
heart aches
for those
people,”
Summerlin
said.
One of
Carneal’s
victims, Missy
Jenkins Smith,
who at age 15
was left
paralyzed from
the chest down
down, said she
was “shocked”
when she found
out about the
event from a
reporter.
Smith,
who has two
children and
works as a
motivational
speaker and
counselor for
at-risk
students, said
that while
people have a
right to bear
arms, “I would
have really
thought they
would have
come up with
other ways
besides this.”
For
years some
rural Kentucky
churches have
given away
fishing rods,
hunting gear
and even a few
rifles at wild
game dinners,
Chitwood said.
A
Baptist church
in Oakwood,
Ga., last year
gave away
.22-caliber
rifles at
services to
attract men
who don’t
think going to
church is
“manly,” its
pastor said,
according to
news accounts.
But
Chitwood said
McAlister came
up with the
idea of
focusing the
events on the
hot-button
right to bear
arms, and
McAlister said
it was his
idea as well
to give away
firearms in
larger
quantities.
“We
have found
that the
number of
unchurched men
who will show
up will be in
direct
proportion to
the number of
guns you give
away,”
McAlister
said.
He
said that when
he spoke at a
church in
Traverse City,
Mich., in
February 2013
that gave away
80 guns, 382
nonbelievers
made
“professions
of faith.”
Filled
pews
In
Kentucky,
crowds at gun
giveaways have
dwarfed
regular Sunday
church
attendance,
according to
McAlister and
local pastors.
For
example, at
Buck Creek
Baptist Church
in Calhoun,
where Sunday
attendance
averages about
350, more than
600 people
showed up Feb.
1, and 86
accepted
Jesus, said
the Rev. Tom
Webb, its
pastor.
McAlister
said more than
800 people
turned out
last September
for a gun
giveaway at
Christian
County’s
Crofton
Baptist
Church, which
has only 75
members, and
101 said they
had found
Christ.
Several rifles
and shotguns
were given
away, Roger
Alford, the
convention’s
communications
director, said
in a story he
wrote about
the event.
McAlister
said the
giveaways have
wide appeal.
“We get meat
hunters who
hunt just to
put food on
the table”
along with
“executives
who think
nothing of
paying $10,000
to hunt bear
in Alaska,” he
said. “Guys
all want to
receive
something for
free.”
But
Kemper, the
Versailles
pastor, said
offering the
chance for a
firearm
“verges on
bribery” and
“makes a
mockery of
what
evangelism, to
my way of
thinking,
ought to be.”
“If
the program
were just
about the joys
of respecting
nature and
other
creatures,
killing
animals for
the sake only
of food — not
for sport —
and how these
activities
might deepen
relationships
with all that
is holy ... I
would not be
so alarmed,”
she said. But
she said the
proliferation
of deadly
weapons has
created an
atmosphere of
fear and
distrust.
“The
followers of
Jesus are
meant to build
the kingdom of
God on Earth,”
she said,
where
“everyone can
live in peace
with their
neighbors.”
-----------------------------------
Seeya
'round town,
Moscow,
because . . .
"Moscow
Cares" (the
most fun you
can have with
your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom
Hansen
Moscow,
Idaho
"There's
room at the
top they are
telling you
still.
But
first you must
learn how to
smile as you
kill,
If
you want to be
like the folks
on the hill."
-
John Lennon
=======================================================
List services
made available by
First Step Internet,
serving the
communities of the
Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by
First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by
First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the
Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
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