[Vision2020] ketogenic diets
Nicholas Gier
ngier006 at gmail.com
Tue Sep 3 11:26:37 PDT 2013
Hi Wayne,
Sorry for the mistaken attribution.
Nick
On 9/3/13, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, I used my same skeptical brain when looking at government-sponsored
> nutrition information as I did when looking at climate science. It's just
> that global warming is a sacred cow right now, where the food pyramid isn't
> so much anymore.
>
> Anyway, my apologies for derailing the thread.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, often folks use skeptical arguments to wield some political
> advantage. In my experience, I find that people use them when they want to
> hold onto a disreputable claim, something that either lacks evidence or has
> no evidence in its favor. A local pastor uses them to pave the way for
> religious faith getting rid of all beliefs based on evidence.
>
> As I said before, the structure of most of your anti-climate science
> arguments is such that it would undermine all evidence based belief. There
> is nothing particular about climate science as far as I can tell. It strikes
> me that there is something flawed about only using skeptical arguments to
> undermine some beliefs. Either they undermine all beliefs -- since no set of
> evidence entails that a belief is true; there is always a gap -- or they
> undermine none. That's my view!
>
> On Sep 3, 2013, at 8:27 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> It appears that the federal government, based on shoddy science and a
> "cascade" (as described in the article I posted) got their basic diet
> information wrong and subsequently caused an obesity epidemic that is
> threatening the health of millions. I would argue that the obesity epidemic
> in the Western world is more of a dire issue than global warming is to the
> average westerner.
>>
>>If it can happen with something as basic and as far-reaching as setting an
>> American's suggested diet, then it can happen in climate science as well.
>> That is why we need to be *extra* skeptical, especially since I see many
>> parallels already to the diet problem and the anti-skeptic rhetoric
>> automatically makes me wonder if there is a cascade happening there as
>> well. Some of the proposed mitigation techniques could be just as
> damaging in the short term as some of the projected outcomes are for our
> grandchildren, so we owe it to ourselves to be open to criticism in this
> area.
>>
>>That's not to say that climate science has it wrong, just that its
>> opposition to skepticism could lead us to the same kind of problems as the
>> medical and nutrition industries are running into.
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com"
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:01 AM
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>
>>
>>
>>I am somewhat of a real skeptic and have studied skepticism for much of my
>> life. I question everything and always have. But skepticism and
>> questioning has never led me to go out the window instead of the door.
>> When considering policy decisions that have a literally global impact,
>> radical skepticism strikes me as irresponsible. At that point we should
>> listen to experts. It is fine if you want to step out the window because
>> you are a gravity skeptic but I'm going to speak up whenever you decide to
>> take the rest of us with you. Sorry.
>>
>>On Sep 2, 2013, at 11:10 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>The experts have been saying that a low fat, restricted calorie
> diet high in carbs was best for the last 30 years at least. I'm
> skeptical of their claims.
>>>
>>>Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this thread. I just found
> the parallels amusing. Let's make a deal. If you will take note
> somewhere in the back of your mind that the climate experts might
> be wrong, I'll take note somewhere in the back of my mind that
> they might be right. Deal?
>>>
>>>Paul
>>>
>>>On 09/02/2013 09:36 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>>
>>>One difference is you can find many experts on the various sides of the
>>> diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and PhDs -- said one diet
>>> was better than all others, then go on that diet! But that is not the
>>> case. Faulty analogy.
>>>>
>>>>On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.
>>>>>
>>>>>Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Or
> search for "gary taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.
>>>>>
>>>>>It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks"
> hypothesis isn't as strong as it was once thought to be.
> Research comparing high fat / low carb unlimited food intake
> diets vs. the traditional high carb, low fat, restricted
> calorie diet consistently shows the high fat low carb diets
> allow the subjects to lose more weight and it makes their
> cholesterol numbers better.
>>>>>
>>>>>Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the
> subject:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
>>>>>
>>>>>I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the
> climate science debate here, too. Politics gets involved
> and suddenly it hurts your reputation to be skeptical of the
> consensus view. Everyone studies the consensus topics, but
> nobody researches topics that by their very nature conflict
> with the consensus view. That doesn't make either one of
> the looked-down-upon topics any more true, but I do find it
> amusing to see human nature at work.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect.
> I have seen research that shows that if you have a
> pre-existing heart condition, then the ketogenic diet might
> make it harder to recover in the event of a heart attack.
> I've also seen research that suggests that pregnant women
> who are obese and on that kind of diet can affect their
> babies by making them fatter and have smaller livers. I
> look at those risks and compare them to the risks of being
> obese, and I side with the diet that will help me lose that
> weight the best and that makes my cholesterol numbers better
> to boot. I mean, look around. How many really old fat
> people do you see? But I admit that it's a complicated area
> of study. Certainly, if I ever get pregnant, I'll drop off
> the diet for nine months.
>>>>>
>>>>>Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I
> haven't done an exhaustive search by any means) involve high
> fat / high carb diets instead of high fat / low carb diets.
> In other words, simply adding fat to the traditional diet
> appears to be what is risky. Especially to mice, or
> rabbits. Yes, one study showed that eating fat from meat
> doesn't sit will with an herbivore's biology.
>>>>>
>>>>>I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite
> has already returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the
> afternoons, I don't crave ice cream or sweets, I'm not
> constantly running to the bathroom, I don't feel the urge to
> keep eating when I know I've had enough, and I seem to have
> as much energy as I had before and I believe that I'm
> thinking clearer. And, my pants are starting to get loose
> around the waist.
>>>>>
>>>>>Paul
>>>>>
>>>>>On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>@Paul,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might have caused the
> condition Atkins died of? Perhaps you should read a little about the long
> term effects of high fat diets, those high in "bad" fats like beef fat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>w.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Mediterranean may be misleading as one might think of a lot of pasta.
>>>>>> Not the case. The DASH diet is similar. One should eat whole grains
>>>>>> and a minimum of processed or high carb. foods. The more color the
>>>>>> better (blueberries etc.), eat legumes and nuts.
>>>>>>>Roger
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>,
>>>>>>>> "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>Date: 08/30/13 17:58
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I would not recommend any of the diets you mentioned for long term.
>>>>>>>> the Atkins diet can lead to health problems in the long term. It is
>>>>>>>> especially dangerous for any one with kidney problems. For overall
>>>>>>>> good heath I would recommend the Mediterranean Diet or something
>>>>>>>> close to it. In other words a diet with lots of variety, high in
>>>>>>>> fruits and vegetables, vegatable oil such as Olive, some fish, a
>>>>>>>> small amount of red meat, and low fat dairy products.
>>>>>>>>Roger
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>Date: 08/30/13 17:02
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic
> diets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I've seen this claim before. Here is what snopes says:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>When he went in to the hospital
> because of head injuries he
> sustained from a fall outside of his
> clinic on April 8, 2003, he weighed
> 195 pounds. When he died after
> being in a coma 9 days later on
> April 17, 2003, he weighed in at 258
> pounds.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9
> days on the Atkins diet while in a
> coma. A quote from the spokesperson
> for the Atkins Physician Counsel:
> "During his coma, as he deteriorated and his major organs failed, fluid
> retention and bloating dramatically distorted his body and left him at 258
> pounds at the time of his death, a documented weight gain of over 60
> pounds."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>________________________________
>>>>>>>>> From: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>>>>>>Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59 PM
>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>To see how well it worked long term for Atkins himself read about
>>>>>>>>> his condition at his death and how his widow (an interesting story
>>>>>>>>> in itself) tried to suppress the photos
>>
>>
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