[Vision2020] ketogenic diets

[Art Deco]

Nick:

Attribution Should be to Joe, not Wayne.



On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Gier, Nicholas <ngier at uidaho.edu> wrote:

>  Hi Paul,
>
> I don't have time this morning to make the case, but I believe your
> parallel reasoning between diet and climate science is faulty.  At least
> you know that it is parallel, not analogical, reasoning, as Wayne
> incorrectly indicated.  I have noticed that the word "analogy" is used far
> more these days, but usually incorrectly.
>
> As I once posted some time ago (apparently fruitlessly), a parallel
> argument is modeled on mathematical proportions in which he numberators and
> denominators are of the same type or being.  The empirical evidence of diet
> is to gaining weight people as the climate evidence is to human caused
> climate change.
>
> A famous, but I believe faulty piece, of analogical reasoning is found in
> Gilbert Ryle's "The Concept of Mind." Ryle argues anaologically that the
> mind is to mental activity as the name "University of Idaho" is to all of
> its component parts and activities.  One of the early Buddhist texts makes
> the same argument: "Nagasena" is simply the name one gives to everything
> that Nagasena is, does, and thinks.  There is no separate substance one can
> claim to be a "mind" or a "soul."  David Hume made a similar argument.
>
> Some of the most clever analogical arguments in the history of philosophy
> are found in Confucianism.  See my lecture notes at
> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/308/mennotes.htm.
>
> Thus endth the philosophy lesson for the day,
>
> Nick
>  ------------------------------
> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> on
> behalf of Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 03, 2013 8:58 AM
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>
>   Here's an experiment for you to run yourself:
>  Look at all the old people you meet everyday.  What percentage of them
> are fat?
>
> w.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>wrote:
>
>>  It appears that the federal government, based on shoddy science and a
>> "cascade" (as described in the article I posted) got their basic diet
>> information wrong and subsequently caused an obesity epidemic that is
>> threatening the health of millions.  I would argue that the obesity
>> epidemic in the Western world is more of a dire issue than global warming
>> is to the average westerner.
>>
>> If it can happen with something as basic and as far-reaching as setting
>> an American's suggested diet, then it can happen in climate science as
>> well.  That is why we need to be *extra* skeptical, especially since I see
>> many parallels already to the diet problem and the anti-skeptic rhetoric
>> automatically makes me wonder if there is a cascade happening there as
>> well.  Some of the proposed mitigation techniques could be just as damaging
>> in the short term as some of the projected outcomes are for our
>> grandchildren, so we owe it to ourselves to be open to criticism in this
>> area.
>>
>> That's not to say that climate science has it wrong, just that its
>> opposition to skepticism could lead us to the same kind of problems as the
>> medical and nutrition industries are running into.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------
>>  *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> *Cc:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <
>> vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:01 AM
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>
>>  I am somewhat of a real skeptic and have studied skepticism for much of
>> my life. I question everything and always have. But skepticism and
>> questioning has never led me to go out the window instead of the door. When
>> considering policy decisions that have a literally global impact, radical
>> skepticism strikes me as irresponsible. At that point we should listen to
>> experts. It is fine if you want to step out the window because you are a
>> gravity skeptic but I'm going to speak up whenever you decide to take the
>> rest of us with you. Sorry.
>>
>> On Sep 2, 2013, at 11:10 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The experts have been saying that a low fat, restricted calorie diet high
>> in carbs was best for the last 30 years at least.  I'm skeptical of their
>> claims.
>>
>> Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this thread.  I just found the
>> parallels amusing.  Let's make a deal.  If you will take note somewhere in
>> the back of your mind that the climate experts might be wrong, I'll take
>> note somewhere in the back of my mind that they might be right.  Deal?
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 09/02/2013 09:36 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>>
>> One difference is you can find many experts on the various sides of the
>> diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and PhDs -- said one diet was
>> better than all others, then go on that diet! But that is not the case.
>> Faulty analogy.
>>
>> On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.
>>
>> Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories".  Or search for "gary
>> taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.
>>
>> It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks" hypothesis isn't
>> as strong as it was once thought to be.  Research comparing high fat / low
>> carb unlimited food intake diets vs. the traditional high carb, low fat,
>> restricted calorie diet consistently shows the high fat low carb diets
>> allow the subjects to lose more weight and it makes their cholesterol
>> numbers better.
>>
>> Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the subject:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
>>
>> I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the climate
>> science debate here, too.  Politics gets involved and suddenly it hurts
>> your reputation to be skeptical of the consensus view. Everyone studies the
>> consensus topics, but nobody researches topics that by their very nature
>> conflict with the consensus view.  That doesn't make either one of the
>> looked-down-upon topics any more true, but I do find it amusing to see
>> human nature at work.
>>
>> That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect.  I have seen
>> research that shows that if you have a pre-existing heart condition, then
>> the ketogenic diet might make it harder to recover in the event of a heart
>> attack.  I've also seen research that suggests that pregnant women who are
>> obese and on that kind of diet can affect their babies by making them
>> fatter and have smaller livers.  I look at those risks and compare them to
>> the risks of being obese, and I side with the diet that will help me lose
>> that weight the best and that makes my cholesterol numbers better to boot.
>> I mean, look around.  How many really old fat people do you see?  But I
>> admit that it's a complicated area of study.  Certainly, if I ever get
>> pregnant, I'll drop off the diet for nine months.
>>
>> Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I haven't done an
>> exhaustive search by any means) involve high fat / high carb diets instead
>> of high fat / low carb diets.  In other words, simply adding fat to the
>> traditional diet appears to be what is risky.  Especially to mice, or
>> rabbits.  Yes, one study showed that eating fat from meat doesn't sit will
>> with an herbivore's biology.
>>
>> I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite has already
>> returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the afternoons, I don't crave
>> ice cream or sweets, I'm not constantly running to the bathroom, I don't
>> feel the urge to keep eating when I know I've had enough, and I seem to
>> have as much energy as I had before and I believe that I'm thinking
>> clearer.  And, my pants are starting to get loose around the waist.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>>
>>  @Paul,
>>
>>  Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might have caused the
>> condition Atkins died of?  Perhaps you should read a little about the long
>> term effects of high fat diets, those high in "bad" fats like beef fat.
>>
>> w.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>>
>>  Mediterranean may be misleading as one might think of a lot of pasta.
>> Not the case. The DASH diet is similar. One should eat whole grains and a
>> minimum of processed or high carb. foods. The more color the better
>> (blueberries etc.), eat legumes and nuts.
>> Roger
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>  -----Original Message-----
>> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>,
>> "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> Date: 08/30/13 17:58
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>
>>
>> I would not recommend any of the diets you mentioned for long term. the
>> Atkins diet can lead to health problems in the long term. It is especially
>> dangerous for any one with kidney problems. For overall good heath I would
>> recommend the Mediterranean Diet or something close to it. In other words a
>> diet with lots of variety, high in fruits and vegetables, vegatable oil
>> such as Olive, some fish, a small amount of red meat, and low fat dairy
>> products.
>> Roger
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Date: 08/30/13 17:02
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>
>> I've seen this claim before.  Here is what snopes says:
>> http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp
>>
>> When he went in to the hospital because of head injuries he sustained
>> from a fall outside of his clinic on April 8, 2003, he weighed 195 pounds.
>> When he died after being in a coma 9 days later on April 17, 2003, he
>> weighed in at 258 pounds.
>>
>> I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9 days on the Atkins diet while in a
>> coma.  A quote from the spokesperson for the Atkins Physician Counsel:  "During
>> his coma, as he deteriorated and his major organs failed, fluid retention
>> and bloating dramatically distorted his body and left him at 258 pounds at
>> the time of his death, a documented weight gain of over 60 pounds."
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To see how well it worked long term for Atkins himself read about his
>> condition at his death and how his widow (an interesting story in itself)
>> tried to suppress the photos
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
>


-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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