[Vision2020] ketogenic diets

Tue Sep 3 08:58:52 PDT 2013

Here's an experiment for you to run yourself:
Look at all the old people you meet everyday.  What percentage of them are
fat?

w.

On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>wrote:

> It appears that the federal government, based on shoddy science and a
> "cascade" (as described in the article I posted) got their basic diet
> information wrong and subsequently caused an obesity epidemic that is
> threatening the health of millions.  I would argue that the obesity
> epidemic in the Western world is more of a dire issue than global warming
> is to the average westerner.
>
> If it can happen with something as basic and as far-reaching as setting an
> American's suggested diet, then it can happen in climate science as well.
> That is why we need to be *extra* skeptical, especially since I see many
> parallels already to the diet problem and the anti-skeptic rhetoric
> automatically makes me wonder if there is a cascade happening there as
> well.  Some of the proposed mitigation techniques could be just as damaging
> in the short term as some of the projected outcomes are for our
> grandchildren, so we owe it to ourselves to be open to criticism in this
> area.
>
> That's not to say that climate science has it wrong, just that its
> opposition to skepticism could lead us to the same kind of problems as the
> medical and nutrition industries are running into.
>
> Paul
>
>
>   ------------------------------
>  *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <
> vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 3, 2013 3:01 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>
> I am somewhat of a real skeptic and have studied skepticism for much of my
> life. I question everything and always have. But skepticism and questioning
> has never led me to go out the window instead of the door. When considering
> policy decisions that have a literally global impact, radical skepticism
> strikes me as irresponsible. At that point we should listen to experts. It
> is fine if you want to step out the window because you are a gravity
> skeptic but I'm going to speak up whenever you decide to take the rest of
> us with you. Sorry.
>
> On Sep 2, 2013, at 11:10 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> The experts have been saying that a low fat, restricted calorie diet high
> in carbs was best for the last 30 years at least.  I'm skeptical of their
> claims.
>
> Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this thread.  I just found the
> parallels amusing.  Let's make a deal.  If you will take note somewhere in
> the back of your mind that the climate experts might be wrong, I'll take
> note somewhere in the back of my mind that they might be right.  Deal?
>
> Paul
>
> On 09/02/2013 09:36 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
>
> One difference is you can find many experts on the various sides of the
> diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and PhDs -- said one diet was
> better than all others, then go on that diet! But that is not the case.
> Faulty analogy.
>
> On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.
>
> Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories".  Or search for "gary
> taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.
>
> It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks" hypothesis isn't
> as strong as it was once thought to be.  Research comparing high fat / low
> carb unlimited food intake diets vs. the traditional high carb, low fat,
> restricted calorie diet consistently shows the high fat low carb diets
> allow the subjects to lose more weight and it makes their cholesterol
> numbers better.
>
> Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the subject:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
>
> I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the climate science
> debate here, too.  Politics gets involved and suddenly it hurts your
> reputation to be skeptical of the consensus view. Everyone studies the
> consensus topics, but nobody researches topics that by their very nature
> conflict with the consensus view.  That doesn't make either one of the
> looked-down-upon topics any more true, but I do find it amusing to see
> human nature at work.
>
> That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect.  I have seen
> research that shows that if you have a pre-existing heart condition, then
> the ketogenic diet might make it harder to recover in the event of a heart
> attack.  I've also seen research that suggests that pregnant women who are
> obese and on that kind of diet can affect their babies by making them
> fatter and have smaller livers.  I look at those risks and compare them to
> the risks of being obese, and I side with the diet that will help me lose
> that weight the best and that makes my cholesterol numbers better to boot.
> I mean, look around.  How many really old fat people do you see?  But I
> admit that it's a complicated area of study.  Certainly, if I ever get
> pregnant, I'll drop off the diet for nine months.
>
> Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I haven't done an
> exhaustive search by any means) involve high fat / high carb diets instead
> of high fat / low carb diets.  In other words, simply adding fat to the
> traditional diet appears to be what is risky.  Especially to mice, or
> rabbits.  Yes, one study showed that eating fat from meat doesn't sit will
> with an herbivore's biology.
>
> I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite has already
> returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the afternoons, I don't crave
> ice cream or sweets, I'm not constantly running to the bathroom, I don't
> feel the urge to keep eating when I know I've had enough, and I seem to
> have as much energy as I had before and I believe that I'm thinking
> clearer.  And, my pants are starting to get loose around the waist.
>
> Paul
>
> On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>
>  @Paul,
>
>  Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might have caused the
> condition Atkins died of?  Perhaps you should read a little about the long
> term effects of high fat diets, those high in "bad" fats like beef fat.
>
> w.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
>  Mediterranean may be misleading as one might think of a lot of pasta.
> Not the case. The DASH diet is similar. One should eat whole grains and a
> minimum of processed or high carb. foods. The more color the better
> (blueberries etc.), eat legumes and nuts.
> Roger
>
>  ------------------------------
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>, "Paul
> Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> Date: 08/30/13 17:58
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>
>
> I would not recommend any of the diets you mentioned for long term. the
> Atkins diet can lead to health problems in the long term. It is especially
> dangerous for any one with kidney problems. For overall good heath I would
> recommend the Mediterranean Diet or something close to it. In other words a
> diet with lots of variety, high in fruits and vegetables, vegatable oil
> such as Olive, some fish, a small amount of red meat, and low fat dairy
> products.
> Roger
>
>  ------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> To: "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: 08/30/13 17:02
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>
> I've seen this claim before.  Here is what snopes says:
> http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp
>
> When he went in to the hospital because of head injuries he sustained from
> a fall outside of his clinic on April 8, 2003, he weighed 195 pounds.  When
> he died after being in a coma 9 days later on April 17, 2003, he weighed in
> at 258 pounds.
>
> I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9 days on the Atkins diet while in a coma.
> A quote from the spokesperson for the Atkins Physician Counsel:  "During
> his coma, as he deteriorated and his major organs failed, fluid retention
> and bloating dramatically distorted his body and left him at 258 pounds at
> the time of his death, a documented weight gain of over 60 pounds."
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>
>
>
>
> To see how well it worked long term for Atkins himself read about his
> condition at his death and how his widow (an interesting story in itself)
> tried to suppress the photos
>
>
>
>

-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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