[Vision2020] ketogenic diets
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Mon Sep 2 23:10:46 PDT 2013
The experts have been saying that a low fat, restricted calorie diet
high in carbs was best for the last 30 years at least. I'm skeptical of
their claims.
Anyway, my intention wasn't to derail this thread. I just found the
parallels amusing. Let's make a deal. If you will take note somewhere
in the back of your mind that the climate experts might be wrong, I'll
take note somewhere in the back of my mind that they might be right. Deal?
Paul
On 09/02/2013 09:36 PM, Joe Campbell wrote:
> One difference is you can find many experts on the various sides of
> the diet debate. If the experts -- folks with MDs and PhDs -- said one
> diet was better than all others, then go on that diet! But that is not
> the case. Faulty analogy.
>
> On Sep 2, 2013, at 8:43 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com
> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>>
>> I wanted to reply to this sooner, but I was on vacation.
>>
>> Read Gary Taubes book "Good Calories, Bad Calories". Or search for
>> "gary taubes why we get fat" on YouTube.
>>
>> It would appear that the "high fat causes heart attacks" hypothesis
>> isn't as strong as it was once thought to be. Research comparing high
>> fat / low carb unlimited food intake diets vs. the traditional high
>> carb, low fat, restricted calorie diet consistently shows the high
>> fat low carb diets allow the subjects to lose more weight and it
>> makes their cholesterol numbers better.
>>
>> Here is an article from the New York Times talking about the subject:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
>>
>> I chuckle reading this, because there are hallmarks of the climate
>> science debate here, too. Politics gets involved and suddenly it
>> hurts your reputation to be skeptical of the consensus view. Everyone
>> studies the consensus topics, but nobody researches topics that by
>> their very nature conflict with the consensus view. That doesn't
>> make either one of the looked-down-upon topics any more true, but I
>> do find it amusing to see human nature at work.
>>
>> That's not to say that high fat low carb diets are perfect. I have
>> seen research that shows that if you have a pre-existing heart
>> condition, then the ketogenic diet might make it harder to recover in
>> the event of a heart attack. I've also seen research that suggests
>> that pregnant women who are obese and on that kind of diet can affect
>> their babies by making them fatter and have smaller livers. I look
>> at those risks and compare them to the risks of being obese, and I
>> side with the diet that will help me lose that weight the best and
>> that makes my cholesterol numbers better to boot. I mean, look
>> around. How many really old fat people do you see? But I admit that
>> it's a complicated area of study. Certainly, if I ever get pregnant,
>> I'll drop off the diet for nine months.
>>
>> Besides, most of the high fat studies I've run across (I haven't done
>> an exhaustive search by any means) involve high fat / high carb diets
>> instead of high fat / low carb diets. In other words, simply adding
>> fat to the traditional diet appears to be what is risky. Especially
>> to mice, or rabbits. Yes, one study showed that eating fat from meat
>> doesn't sit will with an herbivore's biology.
>>
>> I know one data point is just an anecdote, but my appetite has
>> already returned to normal, I don't fight sleep in the afternoons, I
>> don't crave ice cream or sweets, I'm not constantly running to the
>> bathroom, I don't feel the urge to keep eating when I know I've had
>> enough, and I seem to have as much energy as I had before and I
>> believe that I'm thinking clearer. And, my pants are starting to get
>> loose around the waist.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On 08/31/2013 06:43 AM, Art Deco wrote:
>>> @Paul,
>>>
>>> Do you think that eating a high fat diet for years might have caused
>>> the condition Atkins died of? Perhaps you should read a little
>>> about the long term effects of high fat diets, those high in "bad"
>>> fats like beef fat.
>>>
>>> w.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 12:40 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com
>>> <mailto:lfalen at turbonet.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mediterranean may be misleading as one might think of a lot of
>>> pasta. Not the case. The DASH diet is similar. One should eat
>>> whole grains and a minimum of processed or high carb. foods. The
>>> more color the better (blueberries etc.), eat legumes and nuts.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com <mailto:lfalen at turbonet.com>>
>>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>,
>>> "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>>, "Paul Rumelhart"
>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>>
>>> Date: 08/30/13 17:58
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>>
>>> I would not recommend any of the diets you mentioned for
>>> long term. the Atkins diet can lead to health problems in
>>> the long term. It is especially dangerous for any one with
>>> kidney problems. For overall good heath I would recommend
>>> the Mediterranean Diet or something close to it. In other
>>> words a diet with lots of variety, high in fruits and
>>> vegetables, vegatable oil such as Olive, some fish, a small
>>> amount of red meat, and low fat dairy products.
>>>
>>> Roger
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com
>>> <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>>
>>> To: "Art Deco" <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>>,
>>> vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> Date: 08/30/13 17:02
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>>
>>> I've seen this claim before. Here is what snopes says:
>>> http://www.snopes.com/medical/doctor/atkins.asp
>>>
>>> When he went in to the hospital because of head injuries
>>> he sustained from a fall outside of his clinic on April
>>> 8, 2003, he weighed 195 pounds. When he died after
>>> being in a coma 9 days later on April 17, 2003, he
>>> weighed in at 258 pounds.
>>>
>>> I doubt he gained 60 pounds in 9 days on the Atkins diet
>>> while in a coma. A quote from the spokesperson for the
>>> Atkins Physician Counsel: "During his coma, as he
>>> deteriorated and his major organs failed, fluid
>>> retention and bloating dramatically distorted his body
>>> and left him at 258 pounds at the time of his death, a
>>> documented weight gain of over 60 pounds."
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>> <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>>
>>> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2013 3:59 PM
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] ketogenic diets
>>>
>>> To see how well it worked long term for Atkins himself
>>> read about his condition at his death and how his widow
>>> (an interesting story in itself) tried to suppress the
>>> photos and evidence of what a bloated pig he was at his
>>> death.
>>>
>>> w.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Paul Rumelhart
>>> <godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is anyone out there on, or have been on, a ketogenic
>>> (low carb) diet like Atkins, Zone, South Beach, etc?
>>> Did it work for you? Did you run into any problems?
>>>
>>> I'm in my third week of a low carb diet, losing
>>> around 2-3 pounds a week. I'm shooting for less
>>> than 20g of carbs a day, which basically means no
>>> breads, no potatoes, no pasta, and no sugar-laden
>>> anything. For those unfamiliar with the reasoning
>>> behind being on one, you basically have to look at
>>> your weight problem not as a calories in vs calories
>>> out problem, but one involving fat storage
>>>
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