[Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

Thu Oct 3 17:25:49 PDT 2013

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Nick 
You were gloating about the prospect of the democrats keeping the Senate and taking the House due to the shutdown. Sound to me like you were pretty happy with the shutdown.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Gier, Nicholas" <ngier at uidaho.edu>
To: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>, viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com>, "Scott Dredge" <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
Date: 10/03/13 13:53
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

BODY {font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000; margin: 0}BODY {font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000; margin: 0}Hi Roger,

I guess I have to repeat myself for you and Christian Hack Huckebee.  During the 1980s the Democrats never attached "do or die" provisions to their budgets or to the many debt limit ceiling votes that they approved for Reagan.  Compromises are made in committees and before the vote on the legislation, not after the legislation has been implemented and has survived a Supreme Court challenge.  For example, the Demos compromised with him on the huge deficit-inducing Reagan tax cuts beforehand, not holding them over him at the last minute.  No historical parallel here at all.

Just as I suspected, you are indeed joining the extremists on this issue.  If you were  moderate you would join the 20 (and counting) Republicans are ready to vote on  clean bill if Boehner will let them and the Democrats vote on it.  This is dirty, not clean, politics.

You can twist it all you want, but it is the GOP who wants the shutdown.  Michelle B. and her friends are celebrating the fact that 800,000 worthless federal workers are not working or being paid.

Nick

 From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com> on behalf of lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 12:02 PM
To: viz; Kai Eiselein; Scott Dredge
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

Scott
I hope you are right about the shutdown. Personally I think the Democrats wanted the shutdown because it gave them chance to blame it on the Republicans and make political hay. I hope it does not work. I still think a Reagan-O'Neil type compromise would be best. I agree with Mike Huckabee on this.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Scott Dredge" <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: "Kai Eiselein" <fotopro63 at hotmail.com>, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>, viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: 10/02/13 23:30
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

Nick writes:

The size of gain needed by House Democrats in 2014 to take over majority would be historically unprecedented.  The party controlling the White House almost always loses Congressional seats and in that last century there have only been 3 midterm elections where the incumbent president has gained a slim number of house seats.  Bush gained 8 in 2002, Clinton gained 5 in 1998, and if this matters, FDR gained 9 in 1934.  Aside from that, the House losses have typically been steep with an average loss of 30 seats.  I think it's safe to say that barring any major unusual circumstances in 2014, the GOP will gain House seats and will also likely gain Senate seats.  The current shutdown will be a faded memory a year from now.

You may be right about the Virginia gubernatorial race since that one is only a month away.

-Scott

From: fotopro63 at hotmail.com
To: lfalen at turbonet.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 04:55:17 +0000
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

There is a very simple solution to make sure the program works:
Require our fearless "leaders" to utilize it, along with the millions of peons they purport to "represent".
In school we learned that in the eyes of the law, all Americans were equal. Obviously, some are more equal than others, to paraphrase "Animal Farm".
I'm tired of these jackhats serving no one but their parties, big money sponsors and their own wallets. I would love nothing more than to see the Democratic and Republican parties destroyed and their leaders hung.

Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2013 05:49:28 +0200
To: ngier006 at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: lfalen at turbonet.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

Nick
You are asking se to comment on a plan I know nothing about. One feature of any program should be to make it portable. It should go with the person not be tied to the company.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .
From: "Nicholas Gier"
To: lfalen , vision2020
Date: 10/03/13 05:31:54

Hi Roger,

Show me how the people in Mass. are being "hurt" by a plan almost identical to Obamacare. How can people, who have had no insurance, be "hurt" by having health coverage that everyone can afford because there will be subsidies of those that cannot? These people can only be helped by the better health and peace of mind that uninterupted, full coverage will provide. For years many workers have stayed in jobs they hate because they do not want to lose their insurance.

The GOP keeps forgetting that their own CBO predicts that Obamacare will not increase the deficit. They also forget that their hero Ronald Reagan was initially against Medicare, and even some Tea Partiers like those checks, even though some of them don't realize that it is government program.

Obamacare is complex and clumsy because the health insurance lobby was so well entrenched, so, contrary to Sue Hovey's prediction, we will forever contend with an inefficient multi-payer insurance plans instead of the well tested, much more efficient single payer plans. We will never match the lower costs and better health results of these long-running systems. Not with health care executives averaging $12 million a year and flying around in Learjets.

During the 1950s we had a good chance to get health care right, but we passed it by.

Nick

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 6:03 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

Nick
Not so. I said that they were all responsible. Nowhere did I explicitly say that I favored a one year delay. I said that if it were delayed for Big Business and Labor Unions then it should be for everyone. Otherwise make it applicable to everyone included in the original bill. It is not my plan. As for people having to wait if it were postponed, more people may be hurt as it presently. Business are dropping coverage and it will probably cost people more to get coverage on their own. People are also being hurt by business reducing their employees to part to time to avoid coverage. No matter how you slice it people are going to be hurt.
A year may not be the appropriate trial time. But while there there are legitimate things that need fixed. Obamacare has flaws that need to be fixed. These can be addressed as they become more apparent.
You may very well be right that the GOP will be blamed and that it will result in democratic wins.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Nicholas Gier" <ngier006 at gmail.com>
To: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>, vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: 10/02/13 17:38
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

Hi Roger,

The first sentence of your second paragraph makes it very clear that you favor delaying Obamacare for a year, unless you get your way on "fairness" which, as I argued, is a phony issue. Let me ask you once again: Do you think it is fair that those without insurance will have to wait a year under your plan? Please give us all an answer.

Furthermore, according to your new proviso, is it fair that after having coverage for first time, it will be cancelled after one year if it doesn't work? Who gets to determine that? That means a GOP Congress would get to rewrite Obamacare? You can't be serious.

The best indicator of the success of Obamacare is RomneyCare, which has holes in it that Obamacare will cover. The result will be that the People's Republic of Mass. will have the 100 percent coverage that every other civilized country in the world has. Health care costs have slowed more in Mass. than any other state.

The other result will be that the health of people in the Blue States, which is already better than the Red States, will improve, and the health of those in Red States that put hurdles up for implementation of Obamacare will get worse. Isn't ideology wonderful!

Obama will stand firm and the GOP will cave, and the Republican brand will be even more tarnished. I can't wait until the 2014 mid-terms. The GOP candidate for governor in Virginia will probably be the first causality of this anti-Obamacare madness. The election is next month and the Democrat was already slightly ahead.

Bye, bye GOP House Majority; Hello, Demo Congress led by Obama,

Nick

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 5:06 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

Scott
I think that a lawsuit will be filed. The problem is that it will take a year or so to go through the sysem. When any law is passed and signed by the pesident, he has a duty to enforce it as written, not pick and choose those portions he likes.

Nick
You are reading a lot into my comments that I did not say. Unlike you, I am not defending either side. I think that Obamacare should be funded and apply to everyone covered in the original bill for one year. It should be sunset for one year. If it works fine, if not it is thrown out.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Scott Dredge" <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: "Nicholas Gier" <ngier006 at gmail.com>, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Cc: viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: 10/02/13 13:55
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

FIrst off, I agree with everyone Nick has written.

As for Roger's comment:
<What needs to be done but won't be is either that that Obamacare is delayed for a year for everyone or that everyone is subject to the law now. Big business, labor unions and congress should all be subject to the law at the same time.>

Everyone is subject to the same law. In short, the law requires (I believe) everyone to be covered since everyone is a liability. Those working for big business, labor unions, and in Congress have insurance coverage. There is no reason to force them over to Obamacare unless they themselves opt out from their organizations health care plan and would otherwise represent an uncovered liability. I've heard this same argument about everyone being forced over to Obamacare on right wing radio. It's bogus and it's simply a ploy the Republicans to try and weaken Obamacare and as Nick points out, isn't it funny all of the sudden that the free market Republicans now want 'equality' for everyone.

Roger continues:
<I believe it is unconstitutiionzl for Obama to let some people of the hook. He does not have the constitutional authority to decide on his own who to apply it to and who gets a delay.>

If it is indeed unconstitutional then you should be jumping for joy since a simple lawsuit run up the flagpole to the Supremes could quickly smash this to bits and at the same time validate your belief of unconstitutionality. Good luck with that. I think this statement is should be filed in the category of 'blowing smoke'.

-Scott

Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 12:09:57 -0700
From: ngier006 at gmail.com
To: lfalen at turbonet.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

Hi Roger,

This whole idea of "fairness" is bogus, especially for a party whose members say to all us "bleeding hearts": "Life is unfair." I say that more taxes on super rich is "fair," but the GOP says it's not. I like my idea of equity better than yours.

Even hundreds of GOP congressional aides rose up and said "Unfair!" when their employers tried to strip them their government health plans. They saw how phony this charade is. Thanks to the Great Goddess, who is always fair, the majority of your sad party refused to do it.

Except for some computer problems, the individual mandate is ready to go, none too late, for millions of people without coverage. Such as a friend's sister with cancer who was arbitrarily kicked off Medicaid. She will now have coverage, no questions asked. I ask you: Is it fair, if you had your way, that millions of uninsured will not be able to sign up in the exchanges??? I can't believe that you would answer Yes.

The situation with employer coverage is very different, and some fixes are begging to be made. Already employee hours are being cynically cut because their bosses don't want to cover them. Thanks to the individual mandate--a conservative idea by the way--they can find their own coverage on the exchanges. Your charge that the delay for employer coverage is "unconstitutional" is absurd.

Your history lesson is misguided. After piling up debt year after year (finally tripling it, primarily in an unnecessary escalation of the Cold War), Reagan was never threatened by the Democrats not to extend the debt limit. They never attached "do or die" amendments to their budget proposals. They made of their budgets, passed them on time, with Reagan's approval. The current GOP has blocked every single budget compromise (spending cuts contingent on modest tax increases). It's the GOP's fault that there is no budget.

If Reagan were here today, he would agree with your 2008 GOP presidential candidate John McCain: this Tea Party madness must stop. Reagan would certainly not agree with your defense of this egregious, terrorist-like obstruction of government.

I challenge you to call your GOP representatives and relay McCain's message to them. Even Boehner did not want this to happen, but he caved into his radical right. He will eventually have to come back and drop this insane Obamacare provision. The number of House Republicans ready to do this is growing day by day. They know very well that Obama will not give in to blackmail and extortion.

Roger, I can't believe you really want to be left standing on the extreme, extreme right. You don't do it locally, and you should not do it nationally.
Why the inconsistency?

Eagerly waiting and wishing for the GOP, particularly its cowardly House Speaker, to come to its senses, or collapse under the weight of own irrationality and stupidity,

Nick

On Wed, Oct 2, 2013 at 11:32 AM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
The shutdown will hurt a lot of people. Most people live paycheck to paycheck. They have bills to pay. Also some people who need medical care may not be able to get it.

What needs to be done but won't be is either that that Obamacare is delayed for a year for everyone or that everyone is subject to the law now. Big business, labor unions and congress should all be subject to the law at the same time. I believe it is unconstitutiionzl for Obama to let some people of the hook. He does not have the constitutional authority to decide on his own who to apply it to and who gets a delay.
The Democrats and the lamestream media are doing their best to blame the shutdown on the Republicans and they will probably get away with it. But it is not so. They are all responsible. The Democrats say that the Republicans wont deal unless they get their way on Obamacare. But the Democrats are just as recalcitrant. the House has sent a variety of different bills to the Senate and they have rejected them all. Now the House is sending over bills to fund various portions of the government and the Senate seems bound and determined to reject these. So just who is responsible for the continued shutdown. I long for the the days of Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neil.

Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
To: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Date: 10/02/13 10:46
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Concerning the Government Shutdown . . .

"In the event of a shutdown, stateside commissaries, including Alaska and Hawaii, will be open for a full business day on Oct. 1 to reduce the amount of perishables on-hand before beginning a systematic closure process to account for unsold products and secure facilities.
Jeu recommends that customers stay tuned in to their local news outlets for information about any impact to services on their installations.

During a shutdown, commissary customers should be able to access the DeCA website. However, that site and the agency's social media platforms - Facebook, Twitter and other sites - would not be updated after Oct. 1 until the shutdown is over. Customers should be able to access the Department of Defense website, and its social media platforms for any updated information and breaking news that affects service members and federal government civilian employees."
Source:
http://www.commissaries.com/press_room/press_release/2013/DeCA_67_13.cfm

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still  
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
If you want to be like the folks on the hill." 

- John Lennon

On Oct 2, 2013, at 9:27 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:

Although the Military Pay Act was passed and signed virtually seconds before midnight Monday, thus ensuring that our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines will continue to be paid . . .

Commissaries on military installations, funded by the Department of Defense budget, closed their doors yesterday morning. This may not be much of an inconvenience to Installations like Fort Benning (Columbus, Georgia is just outside the main gate) or Fort Dix (Wrightstown, New Jersey is just outside its main gate).  

But, when the commissary at Fort Irwin (home of the 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment, 916th Support Brigade, and the National Training Center Operations Group), suddenly the nearest location for grocery shopping became Barstow, California . . . 45 (that's right, FORTY-FIVE) MILES AWAY.

I'm guessing that there is not one member of congress who suddenly had that inconvenience thrust upon them!

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com

Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still  
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
If you want to be like the folks on the hill." 

- John Lennon

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