[Vision2020] Rand Paul

Tom Hansen thansen at moscow.com
Thu Mar 7 06:56:46 PST 2013 

NO!

I do NOT, under ANY circumstances, agree with Bush-Cheney rationales for torturing people and NEVER, EVER will.

It has been proven over and over and over and over and . . .

Torture NEVER yields reliable information.  The torturer merely receives information resulting in the termination of that torture.  Beat on a person long enough and they will tell you anything to get you to cease beating on them.

This analogy doesn't even rise to the level of apples and oranges, Sunil. 

I DO NOT support killing children or US citizens (void of due process).  I merely cited ABSOLUTE necessity in EXTREME circumstances after weighing potential outcomes and siding with an outcome of lesser fatalities.

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
  
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still 
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon
 

On Mar 7, 2013, at 6:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Oh, I'm familiar with it. This is the horseshit the Administration spreads. Horseshit. They don't provide proof of their charges. They don't allow challenges before they kill.
> 
> If you agree with their rationales for killing people, you agree with the Bush-Cheney rationales for torturing people.
> 
> Do you?
> 
> Sunil
> 
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: moscowcares at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 06:26:36 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> 
> Courtesy of a link from your source, Sunil . . .
> 
> http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/020413_DOJ_White_Paper.pdf
> 
> <image.jpeg>
> 
> As disgusting as this practice may be, the absolute final option may (in EXTREME circumstances) become necessary.  Potential outcomes, when one reaches the proverbial "Y" in the road of circumstances, must be weighed against each other.
> 
> For instance, young children (less than 16 years of age) were often used by the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam war in carrying explosives strapped to their bodies onto US observation posts.  
> 
> War NEVER determines who is right, Sunil, only who is left.
> 
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
> 
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>   
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> 
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still 
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
> 
> - John Lennon
>  
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:59 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Tom,
> 
> Are you kidding me? Okay, here's one link:
> 
> http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16856963-american-drone-deaths-highlight-controversy?lite
> 
> As the article points out, we also killed Al Awlaki's 16 year old son in a separate attack.
> 
> But this isn't the first time I've brought this up here; you should hardly be in the dark about it.
> 
> Sunil
> 
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 05:52:49 -0800
> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
> 
> Perhaps, Sunil, you should provide evidence that the Obama administration is responsible for killing US citizens, or a US citizen, in the absence of due process.
> 
> I suggest this because I am not the one making an allegation. You are.
> 
> Here is the letter sent from Attorney General Eric Holder to Rand Paul (dated March 4, 2013 - less than 72 hours ago).
> 
> http://paul.senate.gov/files/documents/BrennanHolderResponse.pdf
> 
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
> 
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>   
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> 
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still 
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
> 
> - John Lennon
>  
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:33 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You have not proven your point. This is an administration that does not reveal information. If or when they kill a citizen without due process, they will not provide all the reasons or evidence they claim supports them. They will just tell us they needed to do it, and that will be it. They won't allow their decisions to be challenged. They regularly don't even acknowledge that drone attacks outside the US have even occurred.
> 
> Sunil
> 
> CC: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> From: thansen at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2013 05:16:05 -0800
> To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> 
> <215407_10151331874981275_1548944263_n.png>
> Like I've said before . . .
> 
> Paranoia, self-destroya.
> 
> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
> 
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>   
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
> 
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still 
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
> 
> - John Lennon
>  
> 
> On Mar 7, 2013, at 5:01 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm suspicious of R Paul. Why did he make it simply a domestic concern? What exactly is the number of people that we've killed in the US with drones? Say what you wish but the problem that Rand actually talked about is not a pressing issue at the time (not as pressing as the economy for instance) IMO. The timing is curious.
> 
> No one who has posted on the thread is in favor of the current drone policy. When it comes to drones, my concern has more to do with the death of innocents than with the issue of rights but we've killed far more innocents without drones than with them. I didn't here R Paul talk about that. 
> 
> I don't see how the innocent folks who died in the initial Iraq invasion are merely an acceptable cost of war but when an innocent dies from a drone intended for a terrorist, that is atrocious. To me the Iraq war was and is one horrible mistake and drones are just part of that.
> 
> Given the timing and the content of the speech, R Paul's comments strike me as purely political. 
> 
> On Mar 6, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm with Paul R and R Paul on this. Like Paul R, when I read Sen. Paul's statement, my regret was that he limits his concern to US citizens on US soil. We should be concerned about these atrocities wherever they occur. This, and his expansion of the security state and executive power, and his refusal to prosecute torturers (but his willingness to prosecute those who expose it) led me to vote for Jill Stein in the last election. That was the first time since 1980, when I could first vote, that I didn't vote for the Democratic Party candidate. And I'm not coming back while the Democrats embrace and take Bush-Cheney policies to heart.
> 
> Sunil
> 
> Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2013 18:43:14 -0800
> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> To: donaldrose at cpcinternet.com
> CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> 
> 
> "Showboating", huh?  Whatever.
> 
> The vast amount of drone strikes overseas have either been against people on their kill list going about their day, not currently involved in a violent attack, or they have been against people they can't identify but that they are reasonably sure are terrorists because of their associations.  Again, not taking them out while they are actively engaged in combat, just assassinating them wherever they happen to find them, doing whatever they happen to be doing at that moment.  Doing the dishes, blam, dead, along with who knows how many people nearby.  No due process, no vetting of evidence, no jury of their peers, no idea even what criteria our President uses to determine who gets to die that day.
> 
> Nobody I've seen is saying that we can't use drones, even on American soil, against people actively involved in combat.  The problem is that that isn't what they are being used for.
> 
> If you want to wish this away as some kind of stunt because he's a Paul or because he's a Republican or because you don't like his haircut, then you're part of the problem.  Our President is out of control with these assassinations, and our police departments are out of control in their militarization.  Drop the damned Us vs. Them crap, please.
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 03/06/2013 06:06 PM, Rosemary Huskey wrote:
> Should there be a disclaimer with this “purist’s” showboating?   Where does shooting someone in self-defense, or those occasions when law enforcement  officers are forced by a  critically dangerous situation (for example  a gun battle) to shoot to kill come into this equation?  I am sure that Rand will zoon right to the top of the list of right wing nutbags with this stunt. 
> 
> Rose
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of                 Paul Rumelhart
> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 5:55 PM
> To: Vision 2020
> Subject: [Vision2020] Rand Paul
> 
>  
> 
> I found this on Google+, I didn't make it and I don't claim it.  
> 
> I don't agree with this guy on everything by any means and I wish he'd left out the "on American soil" part, but I am behind him on this.
> 
> <ATT00001>
> 
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
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