[Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
Sunil Ramalingam
sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Sun Mar 3 19:59:19 PST 2013
'1. Marriage is a legal union between a consenting
man and woman period.'
Gary, since this is the position you've supported over the years, why should it be so? Let's leave Wilson out of it.
Sunil
From: jampot at roadrunner.com
To: philosopher.joe at gmail.com; moscowlocksmith at gmail.com
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2013 18:46:38 -0800
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
The lengths people on this list will go to to disagree
with Doug are prodigious indeed. If he were to make the claim that excrement
didn't smell nice, many readers would dab it behind their ears before a
night on the town.
To effectively refute the Wilson contention that
"...all the arguments employed to advance same sex
marriage can be, are being, and will be used to advance polygamy also. In short,
gay marriage greases the skids for polygamy" I would need to hear a
sentence similar to:
Gay marriage is good because <insert whatever
pocket full of sunshine you like> and have the statement not apply equally to
unions of three or more. This seems like an extremely simple method to determine
whether Wilson's "fallacious claim" stands or falls.
By the way the most efficient counter to your four
point argument would have to be to simplify it:
1. Marriage is a legal union between a consenting
man and woman period.
Any rational you provide to vary
that formula will apply to polygamist unions as well as
homosexual.
g
From: Joe Campbell
Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 10:38 AM
To: Gary Crabtree
Cc: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
If to deny marriage to a man and woman is lacking in the
slightest inkling of human compassion why not a man and man? Why not three or
more?
I can just slightly reword your criticisms and send them back your
way.
That is the point. If there is a slippery-slope it goes in both
directions: all the way from man-woman to group and back again. If Wilson's
argument were sound, and polygamy so horrible, he should work toward abolishing
ALL marriage -- for man-woman marriage HAS led to gay marriage and (according to
Wilson) that will lead to polygamous unions.
But even Wilson knows
enough to ignore such a stupid argument! To defeat the original argument, all I
need to do is show that it has absurd consequences; consequences so absurd that
even the person giving the argument would reject them. This is a form of
reductio ad absurdum.
On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> wrote:
What you conveniently leave out is the why. If to deny any two an
"experience" is lacking in the slightest inkling of human compassion why not
three or more? If you are asking me to accept your statement based on your
irrefutable moral authority you are asking far too much.
g
On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
Perhaps you missed it in my post, Mr. Crabtree.
So, here it is AGAIN.
"To deny ANY TWO [emphasis added]
individuals of such an experience, merely because it runs contra to somebody
else's belief system, lacks the slightest inkling of human
compassion."
http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-March/089517.html
Two: More than one and less than three.
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But
first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be
like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Mar 3, 2013, at 6:29 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what else I can take away. I have
heard that the topic is "complex" and that you don't wish to "confuse
the issue." What I have not heard is the slice of logic that would refute
the statement that so outraged Mr. Hansen and kicked off this thread.
Perhaps I wasn't paying proper attention. Please state for me clearly and
without obfuscation the argument in favor of homosexual marriage the can
not be applied equally to polygamous unions. An analogy as to why
homosexual marriage doesn't necessarily lead to polygamy is not at all the
same thing. It seems to me that without anyone being able to provide the
example that differentiates between the two, Wilson's "fallacious claim"
stands without refute.
g
From: Joe Campbell
Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2013 6:12 PM
To: Gary Crabtree
Cc: Tom Hansen ; Paul Rumelhart ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
It pains me that I take my time to carefully spell out why
I don't think these are the same at all, legally etc., but your takeaway,
Gary, is that I add support to Wilson's fallacious claim.
An
analogy similar to one I used before: Saying that legalization of gay
marriage will lead to legalization of polygamy is like saying that sex
with your wife will lead to an orgy. I see no reason for thinking the one
than for thinking the other. After all, if you've got reasons for sex with
one person WHY NOT sex with many? Just the same reason over again, right?
But even you can see the line here, Gary, even though these issues are
vague. And so can members of the Supreme Court when it comes to
differentiating between gay marriage and polygamy.
This says
nothing about my views on polygamy, and for a number of reasons I don't
think it is helpful to talk about polygamy while we're working on gay
marriage -- for one thing, though bad, slippery-slope arguments happen to
be persuasive. My point is I COULD hold that gay marriage is OK and
polygamy is not and not be guilty of an inconsistency because of it. This
is a refutation of the Wilson claim.
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
"I argued at length
that all the
arguments employed to advance same sex marriage can be, are being, and
will be used to advance polygamy also. In short, gay marriage greases
the skids for polygamy."
If nothing else this thread has certainly proven
Doug to be spot on in his analysis. Goodness knows that’s gotta
sting.
g
From: Joe Campbell
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 6:06 PM
To: Gary Crabtree
Cc: Tom Hansen ; Paul Rumelhart ; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say
WHAT!?
I'm not denying anything. Maybe three or more. I just
don't want to confuse it with the issue of same-sex marriage. That seems
important to me, just because I can see the folks that such a law might
help. I don't happen to meet many polygamists, so I'm not too concerned
for now.
Why not take one step: include same-sex marriages. If
the polygamists complain as much as the gays and lesbians, we might have
to revisit the issue.
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Gary Crabtree
<jampot at roadrunner.com> wrote:
Then why deny three or more?
g
From: Tom Hansen
Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 2:07 PM
To: Paul Rumelhart
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say
WHAT!?
I absolutely fail to see what the happiness of two adults has
ANYTHING to do with a polygamous relationship.
Let me simply say . . .
Later this year, I turn 62, my spouse turns whatever age she
acquires, and we (my spouse and I) turn 40; forty of the most
wonderfully memorable and loving years of yesterdays that will only be
improved upon with tomorrows.
To deny ANY two individuals of such an experience, merely because
it runs contra to somebody else's belief system, lacks the slightest
inkling of human compassion.
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants
on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are
telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you
kill If you want to be like the folks on the
hill."
- John Lennon
On Mar 1, 2013, at 1:48 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
I
think the general argument would run something like this: "if
it's OK for any two consenting adults of either gender to marry,
then why isn't it OK for any three or more consenting adults of any
gender to marry?"
If that's what he's thinking, I can kind of
see his point. Of course, I'm personally fine with gay
marriage, and would have no problems with polygamy either. I'd
be happiest if the government got out of the marriage racket to
begin with, frankly.
Paul
From: Joe Campbell
<philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Friday, March 1, 2013
11:39 AM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
Well, if he argued that polygamy and gay marriage are similar,
then that is just another fallacious argument. It is like arguing
that we can give every adult the right to vote because that would
lead to some folks voting more than once. We would be powerless to
avoid that!
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> wrote:
Cultmaster Wilson is hopelessly floundering as he is swept
out to sea on the tide of reality and oncoming change. But
that's what happens to those that allege total faith in some
"inerrant" ancient texts. Foolhardiness begets misery for
others.
It's too bad that the Cultmaster is not a
Mormon so that he could have a "new" vision from some alleged God
correcting his current views.
w.
On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
wrote:
"I argued at length that all the
arguments employed to advance same sex marriage can be, are
being, and will be used to advance polygamy also. In short, gay
marriage greases the skids for polygamy."
- Doug Wilson (March 1, 2013)
http://www.dougwils.com/Sex-and-Culture/a-century-of-sinkholes.html
Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants
on)
http://www.MoscowCares.com
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top
they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile
as you kill If you want to be like the folks on
the hill."
- John Lennon
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Art Deco (Wayne A.
Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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List
services made available by First Step Internet,
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communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
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=======================================================
List
services made available by First Step
Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse
since
1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List
services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the
communities of the Palouse since
1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List
services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List
services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List
services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List
services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities
of the Palouse since
1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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