[Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Sun Mar 3 10:38:42 PST 2013 

If to deny marriage to a man and woman is lacking in the slightest inkling
of human compassion why not a man and man? Why not three or more?

I can just slightly reword your criticisms and send them back your way.

That is the point. If there is a slippery-slope it goes in both directions:
all the way from man-woman to group and back again. If Wilson's argument
were sound, and polygamy so horrible, he should work toward abolishing ALL
marriage -- for man-woman marriage HAS led to gay marriage and (according
to Wilson) that will lead to polygamous unions.

But even Wilson knows enough to ignore such a stupid argument! To defeat
the original argument, all I need to do is show that it has absurd
consequences; consequences so absurd that even the person giving the
argument would reject them. This is a form of reductio ad absurdum.

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 8:49 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>wrote:

> What you conveniently leave out is the why. If to deny any two an
> "experience" is lacking in the slightest inkling of human compassion why
> not three or more? If you are asking me to accept your statement based on
> your irrefutable moral authority you are asking far too much.
>
> g
>
> On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 6:47 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps you missed it in my post, Mr. Crabtree.
>>
>> So, here it is *AGAIN*.
>>
>> "To deny ANY *TWO* [emphasis added] individuals of such an experience,
>> merely because it runs contra to somebody else's belief system, lacks the
>> slightest inkling of human compassion."
>>
>> http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/2013-March/089517.html
>>
>> Two:  More than one and less than three.
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>
>> - John Lennon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mar 3, 2013, at 6:29 AM, "Gary Crabtree" <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure what else I can take away. I have heard that the topic is
>> "complex" and that you don't wish to "confuse the issue." What I have not
>> heard is the slice of logic that would refute the statement that so
>> outraged Mr. Hansen and kicked off this thread. Perhaps I wasn't paying
>> proper attention. Please state for me clearly and without obfuscation the
>> argument in favor of homosexual marriage the can not be applied equally to
>> polygamous unions. An analogy as to why homosexual marriage doesn't
>> necessarily lead to polygamy is not at all the same thing. It seems to me
>> that without anyone being able to provide the example that differentiates
>> between the two, Wilson's "fallacious claim" stands without refute.
>>
>> g
>>
>>  *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, March 02, 2013 6:12 PM
>> *To:* Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>> *Cc:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> ; Paul Rumelhart<godshatter at yahoo.com>;
>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
>>
>> It pains me that I take my time to carefully spell out why I don't think
>> these are the same at all, legally etc., but your takeaway, Gary, is that I
>> add support to Wilson's fallacious claim.
>>
>> An analogy similar to one I used before: Saying that legalization of gay
>> marriage will lead to legalization of polygamy is like saying that sex with
>> your wife will lead to an orgy. I see no reason for thinking the one than
>> for thinking the other. After all, if you've got reasons for sex with one
>> person WHY NOT sex with many? Just the same reason over again, right? But
>> even you can see the line here, Gary, even though these issues are vague.
>> And so can members of the Supreme Court when it comes to differentiating
>> between gay marriage and polygamy.
>>
>> This says nothing about my views on polygamy, and for a number of reasons
>> I don't think it is helpful to talk about polygamy while we're working on
>> gay marriage -- for one thing, though bad, slippery-slope arguments happen
>> to be persuasive. My point is I COULD hold that gay marriage is OK and
>> polygamy is not and not be guilty of an inconsistency because of it. This
>> is a refutation of the Wilson claim.
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 8:58 PM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>wrote:
>>
>>> **
>>>  "I argued at length that *all* the arguments employed to advance same
>>> sex marriage can be, are being, and will be used to advance polygamy also.
>>> In short, gay marriage greases the skids for polygamy."
>>>
>>> If nothing else this thread has certainly proven Doug to be spot on in
>>> his analysis. Goodness knows that’s gotta sting.
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>>  *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 6:06 PM
>>> *To:* Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
>>> *Cc:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> ; Paul Rumelhart<godshatter at yahoo.com>;
>>> vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>  *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
>>>
>>> I'm not denying anything. Maybe three or more. I just don't want to
>>> confuse it with the issue of same-sex marriage. That seems important to me,
>>> just because I can see the folks that such a law might help. I don't happen
>>> to meet many polygamists, so I'm not too concerned for now.
>>>
>>> Why not take one step: include same-sex marriages. If the polygamists
>>> complain as much as the gays and lesbians, we might have to revisit the
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 5:25 PM, Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> **
>>>> Then why deny three or more?
>>>>
>>>> g
>>>>
>>>>  *From:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, March 01, 2013 2:07 PM
>>>> *To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>>  *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
>>>>
>>>> I absolutely fail to see what the happiness of two adults has ANYTHING
>>>> to do with a polygamous relationship.
>>>>
>>>> Let me simply say . . .
>>>>
>>>> Later this year, I turn 62, my spouse turns whatever age she acquires,
>>>> and we (my spouse and I) turn 40; forty of the most wonderfully memorable
>>>> and loving years of yesterdays that will only be improved upon with
>>>> tomorrows.
>>>>
>>>> To deny ANY two individuals of such an experience, merely because it
>>>> runs contra to somebody else's belief system, lacks the slightest inkling
>>>> of human compassion.
>>>>
>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>
>>>>  Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>>>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>>
>>>> - John Lennon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 1, 2013, at 1:48 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  I think the general argument would run something like this:  "if it's
>>>> OK for any two consenting adults of either gender to marry, then why isn't
>>>> it OK for any three or more consenting adults of any gender to marry?"
>>>>
>>>> If that's what he's thinking, I can kind of see his point.  Of course,
>>>> I'm personally fine with gay marriage, and would have no problems with
>>>> polygamy either.  I'd be happiest if the government got out of the marriage
>>>> racket to begin with, frankly.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>>   ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>>>> *To:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> *Sent:* Friday, March 1, 2013 11:39 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Huh? Say WHAT!?
>>>>
>>>> Well, if he argued that polygamy and gay marriage are similar, then
>>>> that is just another fallacious argument. It is like arguing that we can
>>>> give every adult the right to vote because that would lead to some folks
>>>> voting more than once. We would be powerless to avoid that!
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  Cultmaster Wilson is hopelessly floundering as he is swept out to sea
>>>> on the tide of reality and oncoming change.  But that's what happens to
>>>> those that allege total faith in some "inerrant" ancient texts.
>>>> Foolhardiness begets misery for others.
>>>>
>>>> It's too bad that the Cultmaster is not a Mormon so that he could have
>>>> a "new" vision from some alleged God correcting his current views.
>>>>
>>>> w.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   "I argued at length that *all* the arguments employed to advance
>>>> same sex marriage can be, are being, and will be used to advance polygamy
>>>> also. In short, gay marriage greases the skids for polygamy."
>>>>
>>>> - Doug Wilson (March 1, 2013)
>>>> http://www.dougwils.com/Sex-and-Culture/a-century-of-sinkholes.html
>>>>
>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>
>>>>  Tom Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>>>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>>
>>>> - John Lennon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>>>> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>  =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
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