[Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Sun Jun 2 07:23:52 PDT 2013
I didn't make any claims about God's moral obligations. I was trying to
carry YOUR logic full circle.
Don't you think it is odd that God isn't obligated to (say) save a drowning
baby during a hurricane (to use one example)? If you were standing next to
a pool and a baby fell in the pool and all you had to do was lean over and
pick it up, wouldn't you do that? Wouldn't you be properly blamed for
failing to do so? Of course, for God (who is omnipotent) every act is as
easy as leaning over and picking up a baby. Certainly it doesn't deprive
the baby of his humanity simply because you saved his life. I'm not sure
why God's prevention of (say) particularly heinous evils or suffering would
deprive us of being human.
But what is worse is ultimately this view seems to leave you with a
worthless God, or it ends up causing more mysteries than it attempts to
solve. For either is totally inactive in worldly events (for the reason you
give: saving everyone all the time would deprive us of our humanity) OR God
picks and chooses who he saves and when. Why? How could a benevolent
creature do that? Well, we don't know. People say things like "The Lord
works in mysterious ways!" I'm not sure why one would go to the trouble of
trying to solve one mystery only to produce others.
On Jun 1, 2013, at 6:36 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
Joe,
Let's carry your logic full circle. If God is obligated to prevent humans
from dying, suffering, and feeling pain that would make humans incapable of
dying, suffering, or feeling pain because God controls everything. If
humans were incapable of dying, suffering, or feeling pain, that would
change all humans into immortal Gods. In this event, we would no longer be
humans, and God would have destroyed the existence of all humans. So, God
has to let our bodies die before we return to him.
Donovan J. Arnold
*From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
*To:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
*Cc:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
*Sent:* Saturday, June 1, 2013 10:53 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?)
**
If the creation story you are supposing is true, then NO ONE is a (true)
creator of anything other than God. We are all just characters in God's
"program." Computer programmers are no more the ultimate cause of their
programs than parents are of their children. To the extent that computer
programmers are justified in "killing" their programs by virtue of
"creating" them -- and this supports the idea that God is justified in
killing humans -- the same principle should apply to parents, as well. Yet
it clearly doesn't apply to parents.****Thus, either the principle is false
(as I maintain) or it is at least not supported by your example. In fact,
you can't find an example to support the principle since there is only one
true creator (according to your creation story). Nothing in the set of your
cumulative life experiences could provide the basis for such a principle.***
*
Again, I'm just trying to make a point similar to the one that Nick made in
his original post, or maybe I'm extending that point a bit. Really our only
understanding of morality comes from the human realm, as your attempt to
support the principle in question suggests. (I'm not saying morality is a
human creation, just that our moral understanding is limited by our
experiences.) If we apply those moral principles to God, then the problem
of evil suggests that some religious views are problematic. But not all, as
Nick notes. People try to get around this by making up crazy moral
principles that give God a unique moral status but it is unclear how those
principles could be supported. Nick did a good job of showing that some of
those principles have absurd consequences. My point is that they aren't and
can't be support by appeal to common sense examples, nor anything else as
far as I can see.
****
On Sat, Jun 1, 2013 at 10:20 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>wrote:
**
In my analogy, the parent is just another character in the video game.
They didn't program it, they just made use of an existing subroutine to
generate another character. The programmer(s) that made game is a
different story.
Paul
*From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>** *To:* Paul Rumelhart <
godshatter at yahoo.com> ***Cc:* Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; viz <
vision2020 at moscow.com> ** *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 9:54 PM
** *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?)**
**
The "I created it, I can kill it" rule doesn't work for parents, right?
**On May 31, 2013, at 8:10 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:*
* **
The way I view it, since God created the universe and everything in it,
then if anyone has the right to kill one of the denizens therein, God
does. Especially since, to Him, He's just moving us from one place to
another (earth to heaven or hell). It would be like saying that a computer
programmer doesn't have the right to kill off the characters in the video
game he's writing.** **Paul**
*From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
*To:* Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
*Cc:* viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
*Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 6:16 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?)
**
You are confusing descriptive facts about the world (what is the case) with
norms (what should be the case).
**On May 30, 2013, at 7:38 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
** **
'Might makes right' is irrespective of a belief in God. It's an
irrefutable fact of life, the universe, and everything. It holds true for
your rhetorical question of 'can [God] not take our bodies away at will'
and Joe's scenario about killing your own dog if you so choose. It doesn't
really matter one wit if someone deems that someone else 'has no right' to
do something. All that some else (or entity) needs is means, motive,
opportunity, and - above all else - the power to do it.** **
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 18:50:04 -0700**From:
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com**Subject:
Re: RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)**To:
philosopher.joe at gmail.com; scooterd408 at hotmail.com**CC:
vision2020 at moscow.com** **
Only if you don't believe in God.
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
**
* From: * Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>; ** * To: * Donovan
Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; philosopher.joe at gmail.com <
philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; ** * Cc: * viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>; ** *
Subject: * RE: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?) ** * Sent: * Fri, May 31, 2013 1:37:55 AM **
**
Might makes right.****
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 00:41:29 -0700**From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com**To:
philosopher.joe at gmail.com**CC: vision2020 at moscow.com**Subject: Re:
[Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping' (really?)** **
Didn't say kill it Joe. We didn't create dogs we simple capture them and
call them our own. We do modify the bodies of dogs. And we do kill our pets
and other animals under conditions we deem proper.
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android
**
* From: * Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; ** * To: * Donovan
Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; ** * Cc: * Nicholas Gier <
ngier006 at gmail.com>; vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>; ** * Subject:
*Re: [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?)
** * Sent: * Wed, May 29, 2013 4:55:07 PM **
**
Donovan asks: "... since we are also the property of God, can he not take
our bodies away at will?"
No. Even if you own a dog, you can't just kill it because you want to do
so. Sorry.
****
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:19 AM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:**
I don't think God punishes us with tornadoes, floods, earthquakes and
volcanic eruptions. Most of these deaths are almost 100% human fault. We
know where floods, earthquakes and volcanoes are located, yet choose to
still build crappy buildings and live there. Tornado deaths are now usually
the fault of global warming, caused by humans, and the collapse of
buildings, built by humans in tornado prone areas. God doesn't create the
deadly situation, humans do. Any human saved from the consequences of human
action can be considered an act of God. However, let us also consider that
since we are also the property of God, can he not take our bodies away at
will? To God, nothing dies, it just changes shape and location. Only in our
minds is the death of someone a loss.
Donovan J. Arnold
**
*From:* Nicholas Gier <ngier006 at gmail.com>
*To:* vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
*Sent:* Monday, May 27, 2013 10:51 AM
*Subject:* [Vision2020] The Good Lord Just Done Gave Us a Whupping'
(really?)
**
Good Morning Visionaries:
**
I dusted off this exercise in the philosophy of religion from the time of
Katrina and I'm reissuing it once again.
**
One Oklahoma official said that it was wonderful that God saved those who
survived. But if God was the cause of the storm, then why didn't he save
those who did not make it? I address the issue of Satan below.
**
The problem of evil and the very unsatisfactory answer from the Abrahamic
religions is one of the primary reasons why good, rational people become
atheists.
**
On this Memorial Day I send out my own tribute to those were served, and
also those, such as Rosie the Riveter and my UP train master father, who
made sure that war machines were built and that those machines and soldiers
got to where they were needed.
**
Nick
**
*THE GOOD LORD JUST DONE GAVE US A WHUPPIN’!*
*NATURAL DISASTERS AS THE WRATH OF GOD?*
I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.**
~Isaiah 45:7 (Anchor Bible)
Why do bad things happen to good people? Why do the wicked get
away with murder and the innocent die in disasters such as tornadoes,
hurricanes, and terrorist attacks? **
After Katrina hit, a man gave this explanation to NPR: “The
Good Lord just done gave us a whuppin’.” This is the Pat Robertson answer:
all of us are being punished for the sins of homosexuals, abortionists, and
their liberal supporters. Most of us, however, are repulsed by such an
outrageous and poisonous diagnosis.
In Agatha Christie’s *Then There Were None*, one of the
characters opines that those who had been murdered were “struck down of the
wrath of God.” Justice Wargrave was not convinced: “Providence leaves the
work of conviction and chastisement to us mortals.”
Justice Wargrave is a good Confucian in holding a doctrine of
General Providence. In this view, held also by Presidents Washington and
Lincoln, God presides over a world that operates by natural laws and in
which humans govern their own affairs.
On the other hand, the Abrahamic religions--Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam-- believe in Special Providence. This means that
God chooses particular prophets or saviors that embody divine authority,
and God then intervenes in history as an expression of divine will and
judgment.
There is a difference between moral evils and natural
evils. The first is the result of humans choosing to do good or evil. For
orthodox Christians the prototypical moral evil was Adam and Eve’s choice
to disobey God in the Garden of Eden.
Natural or physical evil is defined as that which is not the result of any
human will: disease (both physical and mental) and natural disasters. In a
theology in which God is all powerful, it must be God who wills these
conditions and events to happen.
Recently some Christian legislators in Oklahoma tried to change the
language of their insurance law, which called natural disasters “acts of
God.” For them Satan was the cause of all evil, and they thought it was
blasphemy to make God responsible for these horrible events.
Orthodox Christians, however, have always rejected the heresy of
Manicheanism, a view that undermines God’s power by holding that there is
another cosmic power that competes with God.
Following the Book of Job, where it is clear that Satan operates only with
the permission and delegated power of God, Christian theologians have
consistently declared that even Satan is empowered by God. In the end
Job’s brothers and sisters “comforted him for all the evil the Lord brought
upon him” (42:11).
Martin Luther expressed the point most clearly: “Since God moves and does
all, we must take it that he moves and acts even in Satan and the godless;
. . . evil things are done with God himself setting them in motion.”
How do Christian theologians justify God doing evil? Here is one
rationale: God cannot abide the moral evils committed by humans, so God
must show that justice must prevail.
Natural disasters are simply dramatic previews of the Last Judgment, when
divine justice will finally be done. If God is performing justice, then
God is doing *good*, not evil. We would call a judge who let all criminals
off the hook a bad judge, wouldn’t we?
Let’s take a closer look at this solution to the problem of evil. There is
something important that has been forgotten.
When the former Manichee St. Augustine discussed the Fall of Adam and Eve,
he made a very interesting concession: “Our first parents fell into
disobedience because they were already secretly corrupted.”
Adam and Eve were already corrupted because they had “deficient
wills.” But who was responsible for their deficient wills? They could be
only if they had created themselves. The only answer is that God created
them finite, fragile, and corruptible.
I submit that General Providence is a much more coherent view if people are
going to continue their belief in God. The Confucians and Stoics also
believed that God is not a Creator. Rather, God is coeternal with a
universe that operates according to natural laws and contains rational
beings that freely choose their own destinies.
Following Justice Wargrave, we are solely responsible for our own
“convictions and chastisements.” Louisiana and New Orleans government
officials are responsible for not being prepared for the big storm they
knew was coming. And God had nothing to do with it, and she certainly does
not stand ready with a whip to punish her children.
Nick Gier taught religion and philosophy at the University of Idaho for 31
years.
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