[Vision2020] systemic injustice
Scott Dredge
scooterd408 at hotmail.com
Tue Jul 23 10:38:31 PDT 2013
I don't claim that 'the absence of Martin repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head to the
concrete sidewalk, Zimmerman is justified in shooting and killing
Martin, a 17-year-old.'
The burden of proof for 2nd degree murder is on the prosecution team. When the defense team claims TM *repeatedly* slammed GZ's head into the concrete and demonstrates this with a dummy and shows pictures & a medical report of 'cuts' on the back of GZ's head, it's up to the prosecution team to forcefully rebut this and provide an alternate plausible explanation for the 'cuts' on the back of GZ's head so that that the jury disregards the claim of *repeated* head slamming.
If the prosecutions claim was that these 'cuts' where self-inflicted (as is your opinion) and they can't back this with evidence such as what was used to cause the self-inflicted 'cuts' and when GZ had the opportunity to 'cut' himself and a motive as to why he would 'cut' himself, then the jury would be left with the impression that the 'cuts' were made by GZ's head hitting concrete. Not necessary *repeatedly*, but at least once.
-Scott
CC: godshatter at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: thansen at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:31:32 -0700
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
Zimmerman claimed that Martin repeatedly slammed his head to the concrete sidewalk. Zimmerman's defense counsel even went so far as to demonstrate (with a mannequin) how it was done. This claim was a MAJOR portion of Zimmerman's self-defense claim. Without it,all you have is a couple guys trading punches.
Sidebar: FYI, I knew that Zimmerman had been examined by a physician. I also knew that nothing came of that examination. I was hoping that you would take that bone I threw . . . and you did. You're easier to play than an air guitar, Mr. Dredge.
Now, please explain to us how, in the absence of Martin repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head to the concrete sidewalk, Zimmerman is justified in shooting and killing Martin, a 17-year-old.
Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Jul 23, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
I agree that 'Two lacerations (pronounced "cuts") are hardly evidence that Martin had
*repeatedly* slammed Zimmerman's head to a concrete sidewalk.' It's just evidence that his head was cut. But it is another piece of evidence, to me, that corroborates that TM and GZ were engaged in a physical struggle before the fatal shooting.
Is it your opinion that they were not?
Be aware that your opinion that 'Zimmerman was
never examined by a physician' was WRONG.
Also be aware that that your ever shifting opinion is now 'those "lacerations" may have been self-inflicted ([Tom
s] opinion). '
It's a good thing your weren't prosecuting this case Tom. The results might have been different. The verdict could have been an immediate acquittal without any need for any deliberation.
-Scott
CC: godshatter at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: thansen at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 04:44:11 -0700
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
"Substantiating" evidence, Mr. Dredge.
Two lacerations (pronounced "cuts") are hardly evidence that Martin had repeatedly slammed Zimmerman's head to a concrete sidewalk. For all anybody knows those "lacerations" may have been self-inflicted (my opinion). Otherwise the cranial damage would have been anticipated to be a lot worse (as that same physician testified on cross-examination).
Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:24 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
Tom wrote: 'There is absolutely no substantiating evidence that Martin repeatedly
pounded Zimmerman's head onto the concrete sidewalk. Zimmerman was
never examined by a physician.'
<sigh>
'A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin
shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that
Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of
black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back
injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged
altercation.'
'The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment
at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford,
Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal
clearance to return to work.
'
Full story at:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/storynew?id=16353532
I believe she also testified on the witness stand.
From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 19:02:28 -0700
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
There is absolutely no substantiating evidence that Martin repeatedly pounded Zimmerman's head onto the concrete sidewalk. Zimmerman was never examined by a physician. Other than a couple superficial (the detective's word, not mine) wounds.
As far as the supposed statement made by Martin, "Today you die," (repeated word-for-word a few times during the trial) . . . You HAVE GOT to be joking. By Martin's girlfriend's admission, Martin used terms like "cracker". I'm guessing that if Martin had truly made a threat to Zimmerman, that threat would have included some inciting profanity, not a Dirty Harry line from a cheap B-movie.
Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:35 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
Martin punching Zimmerman in the face and pounding his head into
the pavement repeatedly and then telling he was going to die when
he noticed his gun doesn't factor into it at all? It *has* to be
about race?
Fine. I just don't get it. Enjoy your fantasy. Be sure to get
extra outraged about it for me, ok?
Paul
On 07/22/2013 06:13 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:
Weighing in on this topic for the first time, but
briefly; I think, "white guy
stalks and guns down an innocent black teenager" is
exactly what happened.
Sue H
From: Sunil
Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 6:03 PM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
; godshatter at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Disservice to Zimmerman? He killed a kid
because he's a dumbshit cop wannabe, and you're concerned
about disservices to that sphincter?
I didn't follow the case closely and I don't know if there
was enough evidence to convict. I won't criticize the
verdict because I would gladly take it if I were
Zimmerman's lawyer.
But I think the cops did a poor job at the beginning and
that affected everything that followed. And anyone who
pretends race doesn't affect the criminal justice system
is full of crap.
Sunil
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:47:10 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
I agree he should have gone home. I just don't
like the mis-characterization of him as some guy that
stalked Martin through the trees and murdered him in
cold blood only because he was black. That's a
disservice to Zimmerman, and it's only done because he
had the gall to be carrying a handgun on his person in a
political environment where gun control is all the rage,
and because he wasn't charged with second degree murder
immediately (through no fault of his own). Oh, and
because everyone wants to think of him as white, and
therefore "entitled".
So let me ask you, do you think there was sufficient
evidence to convict Zimmerman on second degree murder
charges? Did the jury, in your personal opinion, show
systemic racism in their verdict? Also, do you think
"white guy stalks and guns down innocent black teenager"
is a fair summary of the events that happened that
night?
Paul
From:
Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
To:
vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent:
Monday, July 22, 2013 4:25 PM
Subject:
Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Paul,
Your defense of Zimmerman stopped being
outlandish last week; you're well beyond
that now.
I don't think you should use 'meme' to
describe what others are saying until you
comprehend that Zimmerman should have
listened to the dispatcher and gone home.
This happened because he had a gun; if he
didn't he would have gone home.
He had called 911; he was done.
Sunil
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:42:56 -0700
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: rhayes at frontier.com;
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
I respectfully disagree with your
conclusion. I don't think the jury
verdict is an example of systemic racism.
That was my original point. They just
didn't have the evidence needed to
convict. From looking at the evidence
myself, I support their decision. Race
doesn't enter into it, it's just a
conclusion based on the evidence.
I do see two places where systemic racism
might have occurred:
1. When the police decided not to arrest
Zimmerman at the very beginning. I'm
assuming the police didn't arrest him
because they didn't think they had a case,
which was born out by the not guilty
verdict. They probably should have
arrested him anyway and let the courts
figure that out, though. Maybe they didn't
arrest him because he was white/hispanic.
That's certainly possible. It's also
possible that it had more to do with the
fact that he knew them. That would be
cronyism, though.
2. The other place where I see systemic
racism is in how the media and the liberal
community both are treating this case.
NBC doctored the 911 call at the very
beginning to make it look like racial
profiling, and everyone seems to have
jumped on that bandwagon. This didn't
have to be about race. The fact that it
became about race shows a large element of
systemic racism in our media and in many
other areas, including in political
circles. I've seen nothing to make me
think that Zimmerman targeted Martin
because he was black. Because he was
suspicious, sure. Because he was a
teenager, maybe. But not because of his
race.
I also object, in a nice,
non-confrontational way, with your
characterization of people posting here
about the "rightness of the death of a boy
at the hands of a vigilante". I have
never said that Trayvon Martin should have
died, nor have I expressed an opinion
about whether or not I would think that a
good thing. I haven't seen anyone else do
so, either. I've just been trying to
express why I think the jury's verdict
made sense, and to counter the "white guy
stalks and guns down an innocent black
teenager" meme that, based on the
evidence, seems to be made out of whole
cloth.
I do think that Martin should not have
attacked Zimmerman, if that is indeed what
happened. The evidence I've seen points
that way. I think it's tragic that he
died, especially since this whole
confrontation could have easily been
avoided by both Martin and Zimmerman.
Paul
From:
"rhayes at frontier.com"
<rhayes at frontier.com>
To:
"vision2020 at moscow.com"
<vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday,
July 22, 2013 10:43 AM
Subject:
[Vision2020] systemic injustice
To those who insist
on posting the rightness
of the death of a boy at
the hands of a vigilante,
I post a soft spoken
message. And I would
remind you that your words
may be hurtful...
I live in a bubble far
removed from the rest of the
country and my past. When,
as a young man, I moved to
Moscow from just north of
the Mason-Dixon line, I was
relieved to be free from all
the issues of race. Yea, I'm
white. Privileged by my
birth. As a kid, race and
ethnicity were overwhelming
to me. Italians hated the
Irish, Poles were disliked
and distrusted by almost
everyone. The blacks didn't
like whites in general.
Whites distrusted blacks.
Everyone had names for
everyone else's ethnicity.
Whops, spics, hunkies, kikes,
hillbillies... the list of
derogatory names goes on and
on.
I was despised
because of being sometimes
Irish, sometimes a sort of
Polack.
I learned to run and run
fast to keep from being
beaten up by what ever
group that happened to
cross my path. However, I
didn't see/understand
systemic racism until our
Boy Scout troop tried to
go swimming in the CITY
pool. They stopped us
because we were an
integrated troop. Being
young I never stopped to
think why there never were
black kids in the
pool...EVER. The man that
stopped us was a "greasy"
(another derogatory
slur)Greek with kinky hair
and a pretty dark
complexion. He stopped
Jerome with his arm
saying, "Not You!" Our
scout master must have
known what he was up to,
and to this day I hold him
in high esteem as a brave
and principled man. And
when that Greek guy
stopped him from entering
the locker, I looked at
Jerome, and maybe for the
first time saw him as a
black kid with whom I had
camped, sang, cooked
dinners, and saw what his
life entailed. It was much
more than name calling,
being hated, distrusted.
It was a system of hatred.
Back to the bubble
thing...
So I moved here and left
ethnicity and race issues
behind. Well, not really. It
isn't so much an issue here
because the majority, the
vast majority of people are
white, like me. It is
inevitable that this will
change. It is already
changing and changing
rapidly. How will this area
deal with race and
ethnicity? There are hate
groups and hateful people
conveniently located nearby.
We need to be vigilant with
our communities, and with
ourselves. It is convenient
to be blind to the hatred
surrounding us.
I suppose one good thing
that the so called "jury" in
Florida proved is that
SYSTEMIC racism still
exists. I sometimes forget
that. I live in a bubble.
Now I am reminded, but
should a young man's life be
sacrificed so that I would
again see? People who deny
that injustice exists live
in a state of blind shame.
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mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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=======================================================
List services made available by First Step
Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================
=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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