[Vision2020] systemic injustice

Scott Dredge scooterd408 at hotmail.com
Tue Jul 23 10:38:31 PDT 2013


I don't claim that 'the absence of Martin repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head to the 
concrete sidewalk, Zimmerman is justified in shooting and killing 
Martin, a 17-year-old.'

The burden of proof for 2nd degree murder is on the prosecution team.  When the defense team claims TM *repeatedly* slammed GZ's head into the concrete and demonstrates this with a dummy and shows pictures & a medical report of 'cuts' on the back of GZ's head, it's up to the prosecution team to forcefully rebut this and provide an alternate plausible explanation for the 'cuts' on the back of GZ's head so that that the jury disregards the claim of *repeated* head slamming.

If the prosecutions claim was that these 'cuts' where self-inflicted (as is your opinion) and they can't back this with evidence such as what was used to cause the self-inflicted 'cuts' and when GZ had the opportunity to 'cut' himself and a motive as to why he would 'cut' himself, then the jury would be left with the impression that the 'cuts' were made by GZ's head hitting concrete.  Not necessary *repeatedly*, but at least once.

-Scott

CC: godshatter at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: thansen at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 09:31:32 -0700
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com

Zimmerman claimed that Martin repeatedly slammed his head to the concrete sidewalk.  Zimmerman's defense counsel even went so far as to demonstrate (with a mannequin) how it was done.  This claim was a MAJOR portion of Zimmerman's self-defense claim.  Without it,all you have is a couple guys trading punches.
Sidebar:  FYI, I knew that Zimmerman had been examined by a physician.  I also knew that nothing came of that examination.  I was hoping that you would take that bone I threw . . . and you did.  You're easier to play than an air guitar, Mr. Dredge.
Now, please explain to us how, in the absence of Martin repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head to the concrete sidewalk, Zimmerman is justified in shooting and killing Martin, a 17-year-old.

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com  Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
 

On Jul 23, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:




I agree that 'Two lacerations (pronounced "cuts") are hardly evidence that Martin had 
*repeatedly* slammed Zimmerman's head to a concrete sidewalk.' It's just evidence that his head was cut.  But it is another piece of evidence, to me, that corroborates that TM and GZ were engaged in a physical struggle before the fatal shooting.

Is it your opinion that they were not?

Be aware that your opinion that 'Zimmerman was 
never examined by a physician' was WRONG.
Also be aware that that your ever shifting opinion is now 'those "lacerations" may have been self-inflicted ([Tom
s] opinion). '

It's a good thing your weren't prosecuting this case Tom.  The results might have been different.  The verdict could have been an immediate acquittal without any need for any deliberation.

-Scott

CC: godshatter at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
From: thansen at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 04:44:11 -0700
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com

"Substantiating" evidence, Mr. Dredge.
Two lacerations (pronounced "cuts") are hardly evidence that Martin had repeatedly slammed Zimmerman's head to a concrete sidewalk.  For all anybody knows those "lacerations" may have been self-inflicted (my opinion).  Otherwise the cranial damage would have been anticipated to be a lot worse (as that same physician testified on cross-examination).
Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com  Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
 

On Jul 22, 2013, at 11:24 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:




Tom wrote: 'There is absolutely no substantiating evidence that Martin repeatedly 
pounded Zimmerman's head onto the concrete sidewalk.  Zimmerman was 
never examined by a physician.'

<sigh>

'A medical report compiled by the family physician of Trayvon Martin 
shooter George Zimmerman and obtained exclusively by ABC News found that
 Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of
 black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back 
injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged 
altercation.'

'The morning after the shooting, on Feb. 27, Zimmerman sought treatment 
at the offices of a general physician at a family practice near Sanford,
 Fla. The doctor notes Zimmerman sought an appointment to get legal 
clearance to return to work.
'

Full story at:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/storynew?id=16353532

I believe she also testified on the witness stand.

From: thansen at moscow.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 19:02:28 -0700
To: godshatter at yahoo.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice

There is absolutely no substantiating evidence that Martin repeatedly pounded Zimmerman's head onto the concrete sidewalk.  Zimmerman was never examined by a physician.  Other than a couple superficial (the detective's word, not mine) wounds.
As far as the supposed statement made by Martin, "Today you die," (repeated word-for-word a few times during the trial) . . . You HAVE GOT to be joking.  By Martin's girlfriend's admission, Martin used terms like "cracker".  I'm guessing that if Martin had truly made a threat to Zimmerman, that threat would have included some inciting profanity, not a Dirty Harry line from a cheap B-movie.

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com  Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still But first you must learn how to smile as you kill If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
- John Lennon
 

On Jul 22, 2013, at 6:35 PM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:


  
    
  
  
    

      Martin punching Zimmerman in the face and pounding his head into
      the pavement repeatedly and then telling he was going to die when
      he noticed his gun doesn't factor into it at all?  It *has* to be
      about race?  

      

      Fine.  I just don't get it.  Enjoy your fantasy.  Be sure to get
      extra outraged about it for me, ok?

      

      Paul

      

      On 07/22/2013 06:13 PM, Sue Hovey wrote:

    
    
      
      
        
          Weighing in on this topic for the first time, but
            briefly; I think, "white guy
              stalks and guns down an innocent black teenager" is
              exactly what happened.  
           
          Sue H
          
            
               
              
                From: Sunil
                    Ramalingam 
                Sent: Monday, July 22, 2013 6:03 PM
                To: vision2020 at moscow.com
                  ; godshatter at yahoo.com
                
                Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice
              
            
             
          
          
            Disservice to Zimmerman? He killed a kid
              because he's a dumbshit cop wannabe, and you're concerned
              about disservices to that sphincter?

              

              I didn't follow the case closely and I don't know if there
              was enough evidence to convict. I won't criticize the
              verdict because I would gladly take it if I were
              Zimmerman's lawyer.

              

              But I think the cops did a poor job at the beginning and
              that affected everything that followed. And anyone who
              pretends race doesn't affect the criminal justice system
              is full of crap.

              

              Sunil 

              

              
              Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:47:10 -0700

              From: godshatter at yahoo.com

              Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice

              To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

              

              I agree he should have gone home.  I just don't
                like the mis-characterization of him as some guy that
                stalked Martin through the trees and murdered him in
                cold blood only because he was black.  That's a
                disservice to Zimmerman, and it's only done because he
                had the gall to be carrying a handgun on his person in a
                political environment where gun control is all the rage,
                and because he wasn't charged with second degree murder
                immediately (through no fault of his own).  Oh, and
                because everyone wants to think of him as white, and
                therefore "entitled".

                

                So let me ask you, do you think there was sufficient
                evidence to convict Zimmerman on second degree murder
                charges?  Did the jury, in your personal opinion, show
                systemic racism in their verdict?  Also, do you think
                "white guy stalks and guns down innocent black teenager"
                is a fair summary of the events that happened that
                night?

                

                Paul

                

                  
                 
                
                  
                    
                      
                      From:
                        Sunil Ramalingam
                        <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>

                        To:
                        vision2020 at moscow.com 

                        Sent:
                        Monday, July 22, 2013 4:25 PM

                        Subject:
                        Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice

                      
                    
                       
                      
                        
                        
                          Paul,

                            

                            Your defense of Zimmerman stopped being
                            outlandish last week; you're well beyond
                            that now.

                            

                            I don't think you should use 'meme' to
                            describe what others are saying until you
                            comprehend that Zimmerman should have
                            listened to the dispatcher and gone home.
                            This happened because he had a gun; if he
                            didn't he would have gone home.

                            

                            He had called 911; he was done.

                            

                            Sunil

                            

                            
                            Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2013 11:42:56 -0700

                            From: godshatter at yahoo.com

                            To: rhayes at frontier.com;
                            vision2020 at moscow.com

                            Subject: Re: [Vision2020] systemic injustice

                            

                            I respectfully disagree with your
                              conclusion.  I don't think the jury
                              verdict is an example of systemic racism. 
                              That was my original point.  They just
                              didn't have the evidence needed to
                              convict.  From looking at the evidence
                              myself, I support their decision.  Race
                              doesn't enter into it, it's just a
                              conclusion based on the evidence.

                              

                              I do see two places where systemic racism
                              might have occurred:

                              

                              1. When the police decided not to arrest
                              Zimmerman at the very beginning.  I'm
                              assuming the police didn't arrest him
                              because they didn't think they had a case,
                              which was born out by the not guilty
                              verdict.  They probably should have
                              arrested him anyway and let the courts
                              figure that out, though. Maybe they didn't
                              arrest him because he was white/hispanic. 
                              That's certainly possible.  It's also
                              possible that it had more to do with the
                              fact that he knew them.  That would be
                              cronyism, though.

                              

                              2. The other place where I see systemic
                              racism is in how the media and the liberal
                              community both are treating this case. 
                              NBC doctored the 911 call at the very
                              beginning to make it look like racial
                              profiling, and everyone seems to have
                              jumped on that bandwagon.  This didn't
                              have to be about race.  The fact that it
                              became about race shows a large element of
                              systemic racism in our media and in many
                              other areas, including in political
                              circles.  I've seen nothing to make me
                              think that Zimmerman targeted Martin
                              because he was black.  Because he was
                              suspicious, sure.  Because he was a
                              teenager, maybe. But not because of his
                              race.

                              

                              I also object, in a nice,
                              non-confrontational way, with your
                              characterization of people posting here
                              about the "rightness of the death of a boy
                              at the hands of a vigilante".  I have
                              never said that Trayvon Martin should have
                              died, nor have I expressed an opinion
                              about whether or not I would think that a
                              good thing.  I haven't seen anyone else do
                              so, either.  I've just been trying to
                              express why I think the jury's verdict
                              made sense, and to counter the "white guy
                              stalks and guns down an innocent black
                              teenager" meme that, based on the
                              evidence, seems to be made out of whole
                              cloth.

                              

                              I do think that Martin should not have
                              attacked Zimmerman, if that is indeed what
                              happened.  The evidence I've seen points
                              that way.  I think it's tragic that he
                              died, especially since this whole
                              confrontation could have easily been
                              avoided by both Martin and Zimmerman.

                              

                              Paul

                              

                                
                               
                              
                                
                                  
                                    
                                    From:
                                      "rhayes at frontier.com"
                                      <rhayes at frontier.com>

                                      To:
                                      "vision2020 at moscow.com"
                                      <vision2020 at moscow.com> 

                                      Sent: Monday,
                                      July 22, 2013 10:43 AM

                                      Subject:
                                      [Vision2020] systemic injustice

                                    
                                  
                                     
                                    
                                      
                                        
                                          To those who insist
                                              on posting the rightness
                                              of the death of a boy at
                                              the hands of a vigilante,
                                              I post a soft spoken
                                              message. And I would
                                              remind you that your words
                                              may be hurtful...
                                           
                                          I live in a bubble far
                                            removed from the rest of the
                                            country and my past. When,
                                            as a young man, I moved to
                                            Moscow from just north of
                                            the Mason-Dixon line, I was
                                            relieved to be free from all
                                            the issues of race. Yea, I'm
                                            white. Privileged by my
                                            birth. As a kid, race and
                                            ethnicity were overwhelming
                                            to me. Italians hated the
                                            Irish, Poles were disliked
                                            and distrusted by almost
                                            everyone. The blacks didn't
                                            like whites in general.
                                            Whites distrusted blacks.
                                            Everyone had names for
                                            everyone else's ethnicity.
                                            Whops, spics, hunkies, kikes,
                                            hillbillies... the list of
                                            derogatory names goes on and
                                            on. 
                                          I was despised
                                              because of being sometimes
                                              Irish, sometimes a sort of
                                              Polack.
                                              I learned to run and run
                                              fast to keep from being
                                              beaten up by what ever
                                              group that happened to
                                              cross my path. However, I
                                              didn't see/understand
                                              systemic racism until our
                                              Boy Scout troop tried to
                                              go swimming in the CITY
                                              pool. They stopped us
                                              because we were an
                                              integrated troop. Being
                                              young I never stopped to
                                              think why there never were
                                              black kids in the
                                              pool...EVER. The man that
                                              stopped us was a "greasy"
                                              (another derogatory
                                              slur)Greek with kinky hair
                                              and a pretty dark
                                              complexion. He stopped
                                              Jerome with his arm
                                              saying, "Not You!" Our
                                              scout master must have
                                              known what he was up to,
                                              and to this day I hold him
                                              in high esteem as a brave
                                              and principled man.  And
                                              when that Greek guy
                                              stopped him from entering
                                              the locker, I looked at
                                              Jerome, and maybe for the
                                              first time saw him as a
                                              black kid with whom I had
                                              camped, sang, cooked
                                              dinners, and saw what his
                                              life entailed. It was much
                                              more than name calling,
                                              being hated, distrusted.
                                              It was a system of hatred.
                                            
                                           
                                          Back to the bubble
                                              thing...
                                          So I moved here and left
                                            ethnicity and race issues
                                            behind. Well, not really. It
                                            isn't so much an issue here
                                            because the majority, the
                                            vast majority of people are
                                            white, like me. It is
                                            inevitable that this will
                                            change. It is already
                                            changing and changing
                                            rapidly. How will this area
                                            deal with race and
                                            ethnicity? There are hate
                                            groups and hateful people
                                            conveniently located nearby.
                                            We need to be vigilant with
                                            our communities, and with
                                            ourselves. It is convenient
                                            to be blind to the hatred
                                            surrounding us.  
                                           
                                          I suppose one good thing
                                            that the so called "jury" in
                                            Florida proved is that
                                            SYSTEMIC racism still
                                            exists. I sometimes forget
                                            that. I live in a bubble.
                                            Now I am reminded, but
                                            should a young man's life be
                                            sacrificed so that I would
                                            again see? People who deny
                                            that injustice exists live
                                            in a state of blind shame.  
                                            

                                          
                                          
                                            
                                              
                                                  
                                            
                                          
                                        
                                      
                                    
                                    

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