[Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95

Thu Jul 18 13:17:24 PDT 2013

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Paul gave the best run down of what may have happened. The jury has to go by what was presented as evidence and decide if he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I do not see where the evidence shows that. It was an unfortunate incident where both parties used poor judgement. Look at Dershowitz's analysis of how the prosecution behaved.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
Cc: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>, "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>, vision2020 at moscow.com, "Keely Emerine-Mix" <siyocreo at live.com>
Date: 07/18/13 08:50
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95

This is how Zimmerman said it happened. There was one "eye witness" and at the trial he was unsure who was on top in the tussle. That's my understanding.

And that was the whole point of my challenge to Roger. If you don't think that Trayvon Martin was provoked, that Zimmerman started the whole thing by following around a boy who LIVED IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, then take your car and start following around 17-year-old boys and see what happens. Likely it won't take too long before retaliation.

Zimmerman started it. It was a stupid careless thing for him to do, thinking he was protecting the neighborhood but ending up with the death of a 17-year-old boy. Likely if we didn't live in a racist culture there wouldn't have been such a rush to accept Zimmerman's story when the cops arrived and likely they could have investigated the scene in a more legitimate way and we'd now have a better idea of whether or not there was genuine negligence on Zimmerman's side.

I find it a little ironic that you just assume that Zimmerman's side of the story is correct, just like the police did. Why?

On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

Zimmerman defended himself against someone who had knocked him down, was pounding his head into the pavement, and according to his testimony had seen his concealed weapon and told him he was going to die that night.

For some reason, this always seems to get left out.  Doesn't fit the meme, I guess.

Paul

From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
To: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
Cc: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>; Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 9:44 PM

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95

The best point to make is not that Zimmerman was racist, or that the jurors were racist. There is no basis for either assertion.

That doesn't mean the case isn't symptomatic of a kind of persistent institutionalized racism. You say first reports were that Zimmerman attacked an unarmed kid. But that report turned out to be false.

How is it false? He was 17 and unarmed. Say what you want but Zimmerman stalked then shot and killed an unarmed 17-year-old boy who was merely walking around his own neighborhood. How could you not feel outrage? 

Why don't you drive around the streets of Moscow and follow all the 17-year-old kids you see. See what happens. There seems to be a kind of wreckless negligence on the part of Zimmerman, if nothing else.

On Jul 17, 2013, at 6:27 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

Just a few comments.
>From the first reports out it appeared that Zimmerman had unjustly attacked and unarmed kid. A picture was shown of a 12 year old Trayvon.  This report turned out to be false. Ziommerman is not a monster or a saint. He was a mentor for black kids and he took a black girl to the prom. He obviously is not a racist. This was an unfortunate event where both have some responsibility. We are a nation of laws. On the bases of the evidence, the jury had no choice but to acquit. There have been many cases where whites has have killed blacks due to racial hatred and they should have been executed for it. Just two example are Emmett Till and the three Civil Rights workers.  This case is entirely different.
Roger

-----Original Message-----
From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
To: "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Keely Emerine-Mix" <siyocreo at live.com>
Date: 07/15/13 18:29
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95

A few points.

On 07/15/2013 05:36 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:

No, Paul - you are missing the point.  Make as many excuses about Zimmerman's "recklessness" as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that an innocent child who was doing nothing wrong is now dead because he (Trayvon) decided to exercise his right to defind himself against the deadly menace named George Zimmerman.

Make no mistake about it:  Zimmerman was stalking this child the way a cat stalks a bird.

In Zimmerman's version of events, he was trying to keep tabs on him until the police got there.

And, make no mistake about it:  Trayvon Martin's death was unjust.  It is absolutely unjust when an innocent child doing not a thing in the world wrong winds up dead because a nut with an indisputable chip on his shoulder has a gun, and the injustice is further magnified when the killer escapes punishment.

He was acquitted in a court of law, because there wasn't enough evidence to convict him.  So what do you propose?  Throw the rule of law aside for this one case where you're sure he's guilty somehow?

Trayvon had every right to "stand his ground" against a gun-carrying whacko who had already been told by LE not to follow the victim.  Any man, woman, or child of any color with connected brain cells would feel threatened being stalked at night by an unknown dangerous creep like Zimmerman.

Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman had a gun, and didn't find out until after he was fighting him.

And, if you don't Get why folks are rightly upset that a monster like Zimmerman gets a free criminal pass for killing an innocent child and why they want to organize a vigil - or millions of vigils -- in Trayvon Martin's honor, then I don't know what to say other than I pity you and your lack of humanity.

You have the nerve to call Zimmerman a "monster", and berate me for being subjective at the same time?  And why do you always assume that if I disagree with you that I "lack humanity"?  I know myself, and could give a crap if you know how much "humanity" I have.

Finally, why don't you just give it a rest?  Your biased explanation of why you felt the verdict was just was fine & mildly interesting, even though you included a lot of subjective speculation supporting your bias I guess you hoped we'd miss (LOL - too bad for you, I didn't miss your selective subjectivity).

I'm getting the idea that "bias" means "disagrees with Saundra", but I could be wrong.

But, how about losing the arrogance that makes you think causes you don't care about aren't worthy, and how about losing the hubris that makes you think it appropriate to tell others where they should be directing their energies?  If you want to organize or get out there & protest for your list of causes, have at it!  No one is stopping you or suggesting you should be directing your focus elsewhere.

Just trying to inject a little rationality into what appears to be yet another witch hunt.  A pastime I find enjoyable sometimes.

Why, then, you do feel the need to chide others who do care - and care deeply - about the completely preventable tragic death of an innocent child at the hands of a lunatic vigilante?

That death could have been prevented two ways.  Zimmerman could have left him alone after he'd done his job, and Martin could have not fought him.  It's one of those real-life thingys where it's never as black and white (no pun intended) as people would like to believe.

Paul

Saundra

From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 1:37 PM
To: Keely Emerine-Mix; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95 

The problem as I see it, Keely, is that you want it to be an injustice.  You want it to be about the innocent black kid that was gunned down by the armed white man for no reason other than he was black.  Facts to the contrary be damned.  It's a nice story, but just remember that that's what it is: a story.

Paul

 From: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com>
To: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95 

 Tom, be there Friday at 6, tell everyone you know, bring whatever microphone you can, and I'll see you there.  I don't care how many people show up.  I care very much that I myself not be silent in the face of such an injustice.

Keely

www.keely-prevailingwinds.com

> From: vision2020-request at moscow.com
> Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:44:08 -0700
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Trayvon Martin rally? (Tom Hansen)
> 2. Re: Trayvon Martin rally? (Scott Dredge)
> 3. Re: Trayvon Martin rally? (Paul Rumelhart)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:28:21 -0700
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> To: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com>
> Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, Jeanne McHale
> <jeannemchale at hotmail.com>, Fritz Knorr <fritzknorr at gmail.com>, LGBTQA
> Office <lgbtoffice at uidaho.edu>, "UI Human Rights, Access & Inclusion"
> <csuarez at uidaho.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
> Message-ID: <21BCEC70-D46E-4829-B922-24FA74223826 at moscow.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I am with you 1,000,000,000 . . . %, Keely.
>
> Please let me know what I, or Moscow Cares, can do to make this rally a reality, and consider it done.
>
> Come on, V-Peeps. GIVE A DAMN !
>
> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>
> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>
> Tom Hansen
> Moscow, Idaho
>
> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>
> - John Lennon
>
>
>
> On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com> wrote:
>
> > Visionaires,
> >
> > I've been out of town for two weeks so I don't know if there's a rally or anything scheduled on the Palouse in support of the Trayvon Martin family and to express outrage at the verdict. If not, I'd suggest 6 p.m. Friday at Friendship Square. Please either inform me of something previously planned, or pass this around. I'd be willing to speak and I know others of you would, too.
> >
> > This saddens and angers me beyond measure. We have to speak out.
> >
> > Love,
> > Keely
> >
> >
> >
> > www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
> > =======================================================
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:31:27 -0600
> From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> To: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com>, viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
> Message-ID: <BLU175-W9CE824D6AE4D362F4DE8BE4670 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> What would be the point? It was very controversial to bring George Zimmerman to trial in the first place. He was acquitted. Not even a hung jury. Outright full acquittal.
>
> I hate sounding like a broken record but for whatever reason I can't seem to get a basic point across that ***we do not have system of mob rule***. If we did, Zimmerman would have already been lynched without due process long ago. Would that be less of an outrage?
>
> -Scott
>
> From: siyocreo at live.com
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:18:06 -0700
> Subject: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>
>
>
>
> Visionaires,
>
> I've been out of town for two weeks so I don't know if there's a rally or anything scheduled on the Palouse in support of the Trayvon Martin family and to express outrage at the verdict. If not, I'd suggest 6 p.m. Friday at Friendship Square. Please either inform me of something previously planned, or pass this around. I'd be willing to speak and I know others of you would, too.
>
> This saddens and angers me beyond measure. We have to speak out.
>
> Love,
> Keely
>
>
> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:44:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> To: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com>, "vision2020 at moscow.com"
> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
> Message-ID:
> <1373913845.39333.YahooMailNeo at web163602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Keely,
>
> Did you look at the evidence?? I don't see how the jury could have done any differently.? Zimmerman was using the "self-defense" defense, and there was enough evidence of that to provide reasonable doubt (his injuries, the witness who saw the guy in the white sweater beating on the guy in the red sweater, the inability to determine who was shouting for help).? According to Zimmerman, Martin saw his weapon and they fought for it and Zimmerman ended up shooting him in the chest.? Since Martin isn't around to give his side of events (conveniently, I know) and since there is no evidence to disprove this, they pretty much had to acquit.? In my opinion, of course.? To prove second degree murder, they would have to disprove the self-defense defense and show that he was unhinged enough to take this opportunity to go kill Martin.? I haven't seen any evidence of that, either.
>
>
> The media has worked hard to make this about race, but there was no indication I saw that Zimmerman was racially motivated.? If anything, Martin was the one framing everything by race.? NBC had to resort to editing the 9-1-1 tape to make it look like it was racially motivated, but the real 9-1-1 tape doesn't appear to show this (at least what I've heard of it).?
>
>
> If you want to get out there and protest something, I recommend protesting what NBC did when editing the 9-1-1 tape in an attempt to ignite racial tensions.? Or protest what the NSA has been doing.? Or protest the drone strikes or the secret courts or the secret reasoning for gathering information on everyone that can't be revealed.? Or protest how the US is going after Snowden so hard instead of cleaning house.?
>
>
> Don't be distracted by this media circus.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com>
> To: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 11:18 AM
> Subject: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>
>
>
>
> Visionaires,
>
> I've been out of town for two weeks so I don't know if there's a rally or anything scheduled on the Palouse in support of the Trayvon Martin family and to express outrage at the verdict.? If not, I'd suggest 6 p.m. Friday at Friendship Square.? Please either inform me of something previously planned, or pass this around.? I'd be willing to speak and I know others of you would, too.
>
> This saddens and angers me beyond measure.? We have to speak out.
>
> Love,
> Keely
>
>
>
> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.fsr.net
> ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
>
> End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
> ******************************************

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