[Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95

[Joe Campbell]

How is it a public service for a civilian with no training in correct
procedures to be riding around in a neighborhood with a gun? It sounds
completely irresponsible to me. Something might happen, right? Well
something did happen.

You missed my point too. If you go riding around in a car following
17-year-old boys who live in the neighborhood -- and you are not a police
officer -- something bad is likely to happen. If you don't believe me, try
it and see. The idea that he was "protecting" the neighborhood is absurd.
That kind of reckless behavior -- especially since it led to the death of a
boy -- should have been punished. Why wasn't it? That's what I think is the
interesting question.


On Thu, Jul 18, 2013 at 6:51 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>wrote:

> I very strongly suspect that the likelihood of being jumped and beaten by
> one of the local seventeen year olds would be vanishingly small to the
> point that to bet otherwise would be to throw away cash.
>
> I have to imagine that it's fun for some to endlessly bang away at the
> "stalked the poor child" narrative but, an equally valid perspective would
> be that Zimmerman was performing a public service to his community by being
> involved in a neighborhood watch program and was in no way attempting to be
> surreptitious or covert in his attention to Martin's presence.
>
> Poor decisions were made by both Zimmerman and Martin. Zimmerman's
> decisions may have been ill considered (following on foot if that is in
> fact what he did) but legal. Martin's decision to leap out of the bushes
> and assault a stranger instead of simply continuing on the seventy yard to
> his fathers girlfriends home was not.
>
>
> g
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 9:44 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The best point to make is not that Zimmerman was racist, or that the
>> jurors were racist. There is no basis for either assertion.
>>
>> That doesn't mean the case isn't symptomatic of a kind of persistent
>> institutionalized racism. You say first reports were that Zimmerman
>> attacked an unarmed kid. But that report turned out to be false.
>>
>> How is it false? He was 17 and unarmed. Say what you want but Zimmerman
>> stalked then shot and killed an unarmed 17-year-old boy who was merely
>> walking around his own neighborhood. How could you not feel outrage?
>>
>> Why don't you drive around the streets of Moscow and follow all the
>> 17-year-old kids you see. See what happens. There seems to be a kind of
>> wreckless negligence on the part of Zimmerman, if nothing else.
>>
>> On Jul 17, 2013, at 6:27 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Just a few comments.
>> From the first reports out it appeared that Zimmerman had unjustly
>> attacked and unarmed kid. A picture was shown of a 12 year old Trayvon.
>> This report turned out to be false. Ziommerman is not a monster or a saint.
>> He was a mentor for black kids and he took a black girl to the prom. He
>> obviously is not a racist. This was an unfortunate event where both have
>> some responsibility. We are a nation of laws. On the bases of the evidence,
>> the jury had no choice but to acquit. There have been many cases where
>> whites has have killed blacks due to racial hatred and they should have
>> been executed for it. Just two example are Emmett Till and the three Civil
>> Rights workers.  This case is entirely different.
>> Roger
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Paul Rumelhart" <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Saundra Lund" <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
>> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com, "Keely Emerine-Mix" <siyocreo at live.com>
>> Date: 07/15/13 18:29
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
>>
>> A few points.
>>
>> On 07/15/2013 05:36 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
>>
>>
>> No, Paul – *you* are missing the point.  Make as many excuses about
>> Zimmerman’s “recklessness” as you want, but that doesn’t change the *fact
>> * that an innocent child who was doing *nothing wrong* is now dead
>> because *he* (Trayvon) decided to exercise *his* right to defind *himself
>> * against the deadly menace named George Zimmerman.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Make no mistake about it:  Zimmerman was *stalking* this child the way a
>> cat stalks a bird.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Zimmerman's version of events, he was trying to keep tabs on him until
>> the police got there.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And, make no mistake about it:  Trayvon Martin’s death was unjust.  It is
>> *absolutely unjust* when an innocent child doing not a thing in the
>> world wrong winds up dead because a nut with an indisputable chip on his
>> shoulder has a gun, and the injustice is further magnified when the killer
>> escapes punishment.
>>
>>
>>
>> He was acquitted in a court of law, because there wasn't enough evidence
>> to convict him.  So what do you propose?  Throw the rule of law aside for
>> this one case where you're sure he's guilty somehow?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Trayvon had every right to “stand his ground” against a gun-carrying
>> whacko who had already been told by LE *not* to follow the victim.  Any
>> man, woman, or child of *any* color with connected brain cells would
>> feel threatened being stalked at night by an unknown dangerous creep like
>> Zimmerman.
>>
>>
>>
>> Martin had no way of knowing that Zimmerman had a gun, and didn't find
>> out until after he was fighting him.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> And, if you don’t Get why folks are rightly upset that a monster like
>> Zimmerman gets a free criminal pass for killing an innocent child and why
>> they want to organize a vigil – or millions of vigils -- in Trayvon
>> Martin’s honor, then I don’t know what to say other than I pity you and
>> your lack of humanity.
>>
>>
>>
>> You have the nerve to call Zimmerman a "monster", and berate me for being
>> subjective at the same time?  And why do you always assume that if I
>> disagree with you that I "lack humanity"?  I know myself, and could give a
>> crap if you know how much "humanity" I have.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Finally, why don’t you just give it a rest?  Your biased explanation of
>> why you felt the verdict was just was fine & mildly interesting, even
>> though you included a lot of subjective speculation supporting your bias I
>> guess you hoped we’d miss (LOL – too bad for you, I didn’t miss your
>> selective subjectivity).
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm getting the idea that "bias" means "disagrees with Saundra", but I
>> could be wrong.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But, how about losing the arrogance that makes you think causes you don’t
>> care about aren’t worthy, and how about losing the hubris that makes you
>> think it appropriate to tell others where they should be directing their
>> energies?  If you want to organize or get out there & protest for your list
>> of causes, have at it!  No one is stopping you or suggesting you should be
>> directing your focus elsewhere.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just trying to inject a little rationality into what appears to be yet
>> another witch hunt.  A pastime I find enjoyable sometimes.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why, then, you do feel the need to chide others who *do* care – and care
>> deeply – about the completely preventable tragic death of an innocent child
>> at the hands of a lunatic vigilante?
>>
>>
>>
>> That death could have been prevented two ways.  Zimmerman could have left
>> him alone after he'd done his job, and Martin could have not fought him.
>> It's one of those real-life thingys where it's never as black and white (no
>> pun intended) as people would like to believe.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Saundra
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [
>> mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com <vision2020-bounces at moscow.com>] *On
>> Behalf Of* Paul Rumelhart
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2013 1:37 PM
>> *To:* Keely Emerine-Mix; vision2020 at moscow.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem as I see it, Keely, is that you want it to be an injustice.
>> You want it to be about the innocent black kid that was gunned down by the
>> armed white man for no reason other than he was black.  Facts to the
>> contrary be damned.  It's a nice story, but just remember that that's what
>> it is: a story.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com> <siyocreo at live.com>
>> *To:* "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2013 1:10 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tom, be there Friday at 6, tell everyone you know, bring whatever
>> microphone you can, and I'll see you there.  I don't care how many people
>> show up.  I care very much that I myself not be silent in the face of such
>> an injustice.
>>
>> Keely
>>
>>
>>
>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>>
>> > From: vision2020-request at moscow.com
>> > Subject: Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:44:08 -0700
>> >
>> > Send Vision2020 mailing list submissions to
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>> >
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>> >
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>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of Vision2020 digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Re: Trayvon Martin rally? (Tom Hansen)
>> > 2. Re: Trayvon Martin rally? (Scott Dredge)
>> > 3. Re: Trayvon Martin rally? (Paul Rumelhart)
>> >
>> >
>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:28:21 -0700
>> > From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> <thansen at moscow.com>
>> > To: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com> <siyocreo at live.com>
>> > Cc: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>, Jeanne McHale
>> > <jeannemchale at hotmail.com> <jeannemchale at hotmail.com>, Fritz Knorr
>> <fritzknorr at gmail.com> <fritzknorr at gmail.com>, LGBTQA
>> > Office <lgbtoffice at uidaho.edu> <lgbtoffice at uidaho.edu>, "UI Human
>> Rights, Access & Inclusion"
>> > <csuarez at uidaho.edu> <csuarez at uidaho.edu>
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>> > Message-ID: <21BCEC70-D46E-4829-B922-24FA74223826 at moscow.com><21BCEC70-D46E-4829-B922-24FA74223826 at moscow.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>> >
>> > I am with you 1,000,000,000 . . . %, Keely.
>> >
>> > Please let me know what I, or Moscow Cares, can do to make this rally a
>> reality, and consider it done.
>> >
>> > Come on, V-Peeps. GIVE A DAMN !
>> >
>> > Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>> >
>> > "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>> > http://www.MoscowCares.com
>> >
>> > Tom Hansen
>> > Moscow, Idaho
>> >
>> > "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>> > But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>> > If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>> >
>> > - John Lennon
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Jul 15, 2013, at 11:18 AM, Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com><siyocreo at live.com>wrote:
>> >
>> > > Visionaires,
>> > >
>> > > I've been out of town for two weeks so I don't know if there's a
>> rally or anything scheduled on the Palouse in support of the Trayvon Martin
>> family and to express outrage at the verdict. If not, I'd suggest 6 p.m.
>> Friday at Friendship Square. Please either inform me of something
>> previously planned, or pass this around. I'd be willing to speak and I know
>> others of you would, too.
>> > >
>> > > This saddens and angers me beyond measure. We have to speak out.
>> > >
>> > > Love,
>> > > Keely
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>> > > =======================================================
>> > > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > > http://www.fsr.net
>> > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > > =======================================================
>> > -------------- next part --------------
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:31:27 -0600
>> > From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
>> > To: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com> <siyocreo at live.com>, viz
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>> > Message-ID: <BLU175-W9CE824D6AE4D362F4DE8BE4670 at phx.gbl><BLU175-W9CE824D6AE4D362F4DE8BE4670 at phx.gbl>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > What would be the point? It was very controversial to bring George
>> Zimmerman to trial in the first place. He was acquitted. Not even a hung
>> jury. Outright full acquittal.
>> >
>> > I hate sounding like a broken record but for whatever reason I can't
>> seem to get a basic point across that ***we do not have system of mob
>> rule***. If we did, Zimmerman would have already been lynched without due
>> process long ago. Would that be less of an outrage?
>> >
>> > -Scott
>> >
>> > From: siyocreo at live.com
>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:18:06 -0700
>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Visionaires,
>> >
>> > I've been out of town for two weeks so I don't know if there's a rally
>> or anything scheduled on the Palouse in support of the Trayvon Martin
>> family and to express outrage at the verdict. If not, I'd suggest 6 p.m.
>> Friday at Friendship Square. Please either inform me of something
>> previously planned, or pass this around. I'd be willing to speak and I know
>> others of you would, too.
>> >
>> > This saddens and angers me beyond measure. We have to speak out.
>> >
>> > Love,
>> > Keely
>> >
>> >
>> > www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>> >
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > =======================================================
>> > -------------- next part --------------
>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2013 11:44:05 -0700 (PDT)
>> > From: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>> > To: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com> <siyocreo at live.com>,
>> "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <1373913845.39333.YahooMailNeo at web163602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><1373913845.39333.YahooMailNeo at web163602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>> >
>> > Keely,
>> >
>> > Did you look at the evidence?? I don't see how the jury could have done
>> any differently.? Zimmerman was using the "self-defense" defense, and there
>> was enough evidence of that to provide reasonable doubt (his injuries, the
>> witness who saw the guy in the white sweater beating on the guy in the red
>> sweater, the inability to determine who was shouting for help).? According
>> to Zimmerman, Martin saw his weapon and they fought for it and Zimmerman
>> ended up shooting him in the chest.? Since Martin isn't around to give his
>> side of events (conveniently, I know) and since there is no evidence to
>> disprove this, they pretty much had to acquit.? In my opinion, of course.?
>> To prove second degree murder, they would have to disprove the self-defense
>> defense and show that he was unhinged enough to take this opportunity to go
>> kill Martin.? I haven't seen any evidence of that, either.
>> >
>> >
>> > The media has worked hard to make this about race, but there was no
>> indication I saw that Zimmerman was racially motivated.? If anything,
>> Martin was the one framing everything by race.? NBC had to resort to
>> editing the 9-1-1 tape to make it look like it was racially motivated, but
>> the real 9-1-1 tape doesn't appear to show this (at least what I've heard
>> of it).?
>> >
>> >
>> > If you want to get out there and protest something, I recommend
>> protesting what NBC did when editing the 9-1-1 tape in an attempt to ignite
>> racial tensions.? Or protest what the NSA has been doing.? Or protest the
>> drone strikes or the secret courts or the secret reasoning for gathering
>> information on everyone that can't be revealed.? Or protest how the US is
>> going after Snowden so hard instead of cleaning house.?
>> >
>> >
>> > Don't be distracted by this media circus.
>> >
>> > Paul
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Keely Emerine-Mix <siyocreo at live.com> <siyocreo at live.com>
>> > To: "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 11:18 AM
>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Trayvon Martin rally?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Visionaires,
>> >
>> > I've been out of town for two weeks so I don't know if there's a rally
>> or anything scheduled on the Palouse in support of the Trayvon Martin
>> family and to express outrage at the verdict.? If not, I'd suggest 6 p.m.
>> Friday at Friendship Square.? Please either inform me of something
>> previously planned, or pass this around.? I'd be willing to speak and I
>> know others of you would, too.
>> >
>> > This saddens and angers me beyond measure.? We have to speak out.
>> >
>> > Love,
>> > Keely
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.fsr.net
>> > ? ? ? ? ? mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > =======================================================
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>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > =======================================================
>> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> > http://www.fsr.net
>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> > =======================================================
>> >
>> > End of Vision2020 Digest, Vol 85, Issue 95
>> > ******************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>               http://www.fsr.net
>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> =======================================================
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>
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