[Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

Tom Hansen thansen at moscow.com
Thu Feb 21 09:19:39 PST 2013 

No need to worry there, Mr. Rumelhart.

Although I own a shotgun, I haven't fired it since . . . I can't remember when.

Heck, I haven't fired a weapon of any kind since May of 1987 when I fired a .45 caliber automatic handgun, an M-16, and a 25 millimeter Bradley main gun (all for qualification) at the Army Training/Qualification Center in Grafenwoehr, Germany.

And I think I've turned out pretty well.  At least that is what the voices tell me.

Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares"
http://www.MoscowCares.com
  
Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
Moscow, Idaho

"There's room at the top they are telling you still 
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John Lennon
 

On Feb 21, 2013, at 9:08 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
> That's what I don't understand.  The assumption seems to be that if you have a gun handy, you just have to shoot it at the nearest person as soon as possible.  It makes me think that gun-control advocates really shouldn't be allowed near firearms.  
> 
> Paul
> 
> 
> From: Gary Crabtree <jampot at roadrunner.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>; Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> 
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 5:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
> 
> The point that you and most of the other anti-firearm respondents continually miss is that I, nor Paul or Roger are not advocating the Fearless Fosdick/LAPD tactic of firing a warning shot into the back of the head of our lovable and slightly confused/intoxicated intruder. What I, and I believe the others are saying is that a weapon can be a usefull tool in certain situations and while some may elect to not have that tool at their disposal, I would like to be able to have it as one of my options. Any sane person would prefer that an intruder in their home simply leave when told. Having a weapon forestalls the intruders potential response of "or what."
>  
> g
> 
> From: Donovan Arnold
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 11:28 PM
> To: Gary Crabtree ; Art Deco
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
> 
> I guess that would work if you sat behind your door with a gun waiting for an unexpected guest. The smartest thing to do if you suspect people are trying to get into your house would be to exit through the nearest door or window. Then call the police. When they exit the house the police will be there to nab them, or you can slash their tires and have fun watching them trying to escape with your insured television.
>  
> Keep in mind, if you shoot an unarmed person that is not 100% in your house you are in legal trouble. A dead body in your house will be cleaned up and removed at your expense, and it isn't cheap. And you will have to disclose the death on the sale of the home, which will cost you $10,000s. You will have to live with the fact that you probably killed an innocent person. Chances are someone that entered your home unexpectedly in Moscow would be an intoxicated college student whose biggest threat would be vomits on your living room carpet.
>  
> There are countless risks for getting into a gun battle with an unknown person, the risks of insuring your belongs and beating feet at the sign of danger are much less and have far better outcomes. I'm not against owning a gun, but that scenario is a stupid reason to use a gun. I would use a gun if I was out of the immediate reach of the police and there was a clear and present danger to my life or the life of another. With the possible exception if I was robbed constantly with no help from the police or insurance companies.  
>  
> Donovan J. Arnold
> 
> From: Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
> To: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> 
> Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 2:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
> 
> The problem does not seem at all insurmountable.
> 
> Problem, person(s) force entry to ones home without invitation.
>  
> Solution. Point weapon in general direction of intruder and request (insist) they leave.
>  
> Outcome. They comply or they do not.
>  
> Compliance equals positive resolution to problem.
>  
> Noncompliance results in negative outcome for intruder.
>  
> The real problem stems from not having the proper tools to affect the desired outcome.
>  
> g
> 
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem of dealing with intruders involves sometimes a dangerous lack of information.
> 
> Is the intruder armed?
> 
> Is there more than one?
> 
> What are the intentions of of the intruder?
> 
> Who is the intruder?  Is she/he someone known?  What is the relevant history of the intruder?
> 
> Are there effective/non-lethal ways of neutralizing the intruder?
> 
> How can those intruded upon calculate the the risk to themselves, and decide upon the action to be taken?
> 
> 
> w.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
> These are empirically claims. Could be that pulling out a gun increases your risk. It depends on a lot of factors.
> 
> The big question is: does the potential for help outweigh the risk of harm?
> 
> And I hate to tell you that in a region with a low incidence of gun violence, the answer is 'No.' Paul's weapons are more likely to cause him harm than they are to protect him.
> 
> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a powerful deterrent to staying in your house much less helping himself to your belongings or continued good health.
>>  
>> g
>> 
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is what listening to pop music can do to you! 
>> 
>> Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun was not a deterrent.
>> 
>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy singing to put anybody down.
>>> 
>>> sr
>>> 
>>> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800
>>> 
>>> Now you're just monkeeing around.
>>>  
>>> g
>>> 
>>> From: Sunil Ramalingam
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM
>>> Cc: vision 2020
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>> 
>>> The premise of your post was that he was breaking into homes when people were there. Now you're inventing his motive to kill you. No, if he saw your face, he'd be a believer, not a killer.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sunil
>>> 
>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:56:57 -0800
>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It didn't say he was.  If he did, though, I'd want to be able to protect myself if he ran across me in a home he thought was empty and he got it through his head that I had to die because I'd seen his face.  Or maybe he's desperate, and now he's willing to try hitting a house that is occupied but looks like he could rob it regardless.
>>> 
>>> It's a tool of preparedness.  I'd rather not assume that he's harmless if he's breaking into houses and robbing them.  If my assumption is wrong, I could die.  I'd rather not throw away my chance at survival because "OMG!  Guns are bad!"
>>> 
>>> It doesn't mean, by the way, that I'd just shoot this guy for breaking into my house.  But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent, and if it turns out my life is at stake, I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could throw at him, or whatever I happened to have at hand.
>>> 
>>> This isn't rocket science.  Be prepared.  It's the good old Boy Scout motto.   I also have a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher.
>>> 
>>> Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!" narrative drive your views.
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>>> Paul,
>>> 
>>> Where does it say he's breaking into homes when people are in? I had a lot of burglary cases, and my mistakenly charged clients were usually alleged to have entered homes when no one was there. Lots easier to leave with stuff that way, said the authorities.
>>> 
>>> Sunil
>>> 
>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800
>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>> To: thansen at moscow.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>> 
>>> 
>>> What's paranoid about locking up when you're out and being ready to defend yourself when you're at home when there is a known burglar in the area?  Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid.  If someone is crazy enough to break into your home while you are there, you can go ahead and classify that as a situation fraught with danger, in which case having some means to protect yourself might be called for.  There are plenty of reasonable scenarios where a would-be burglar happens upon a member of the household when he thought the place was empty that could end up very badly for the person he stumbled upon.  If the burglar knew you were at home and invaded the home anyway, then you've definitely got a problem if you are happily unarmed.
>>> 
>>> Better to have that gun when you need it than not.  If guns frighten you, which I find hard to believe because of your military background, then at least pick up a good aluminum baseball bat.
>>> 
>>> Do you think I'm paranoid because I keep a set of jumper cables in my trunk in case my battery dies and I need a jump from a kind stranger?  Are you one of those people that joyously flit from situation to situation relying on the gods to keep you out of trouble?
>>> 
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>> <ATT00001>
>>> 
>>> Paranoia . . . self-destroya.
>>> 
>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>> 
>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>> http://www.moscowcares.com/
>>>   
>>> Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>> 
>>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still 
>>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill 
>>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>> 
>>> - John Lennon
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>> =======================================================
>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>                http://www.fsr.net/
>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> =======================================================
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> =======================================================
>>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>                http://www.fsr.net/
>>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> =======================================================
>>> =======================================================
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>               http://www.fsr.net/
>>>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>> 
>> =======================================================
>>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>                http://www.fsr.net/
>>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>> 
> 
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net/
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net/
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net/
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
>  List services made available by First Step Internet,
>  serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>                http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>           mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
> 
> =======================================================
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>               http://www.fsr.net
>          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> =======================================================
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