[Vision2020] Hmmm . . .

Joe Campbell philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Wed Feb 20 15:27:58 PST 2013 

Roger,

First, I don't care about the guns you need for your protection. Keep them.
I am not arguing for gun control. I am not a gun control advocate. I am
just countering the arguments against gun control, or that arguments from
the pro-gun lobby, because they are painfully bad arguments.

My point (and one that Nick made, as well) is that whether or not your guns
actually protect you is an empirical question and in your case the answer
is that your guns are unlikely to ever project you because the crimes that
you are afraid of happening are infrequent in this area (thank god).
Perhaps you want the gun just in case but then why not wear a helmet, just
in case some space junk falls from the sky? You never know! Better to be
safe. What is special about the causes of death and harm that you fear
given they have such a low likelihood of occurrence? Tom's initial point
was that it is a kind of paranoia and has no basis in fact.

Some -- you, Gary, Paul -- say guns are used for protection but that is
questionable. I have no doubt that you, and Gary, and Paul feel safer with
a gun in your hand. But are you safer? Are you protected? Protected from
what? From a set of unlikely events? At what cost? Can you promise your gun
will never be stolen, never used in a crime against me? I doubt it. Like it
or not, your gun is a risk to me. That's why I care. What might seem as
your own business might in fact be my business, too.

Paul seems to think that he is immune to risk, and because of that
(perhaps) he gets to decide whether he needs a gun to protect his family or
not. He gets to make that decision. But if it turns out that what he calls
"protection" is no such thing, that in fact there are increased risks, and
that the risks outweigh the benefits, then that is another matter.

Again, I'm merely pointing out the kind of information we should consider
when deciding whether or not to control guns. Then there is the issue of
what the evidence says.

Joe

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:33 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:

> Gary
>
> I think that thsoe  who do not think people should have a gun in their
> home are like the actor Gary Busey. He was against the helmet law for those
> riding motorcycles. He wanted to feel the wind in his hair. He had an
> accident and received a concussion. He is now making adds in favor of
> waring a helmet. When these people have someone break into their home and
> rape their wife or daughter, they might change their mind also.
>
> Roger
>
> ------------------------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Gary Crabtree" <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
> To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>
> Cc: "vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Date: 02/20/13 13:05
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>
> Sez the little fella who boasts pugnaciously of defending his humble
> apartment with a 12 ga.
> I assume that the missuz has long since dried her eyes and taken up a
> hobby to fill the gap.
>
> g
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 8:33 AM, Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> [image: image.jpeg]
>>
>>
>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares"
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>
>>  Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> - John Lennon
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a powerful deterrent to
>> staying in your house much less helping himself to your belongings or
>> continued good health.
>>
>> g
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> This is what listening to pop music can do to you!
>>>
>>> Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun was not a deterrent.
>>>  On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <
>>> sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy singing to put anybody down.
>>>
>>> sr
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800
>>>
>>>
>>> Now you're just monkeeing around.
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>  *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM
>>>  *Cc:* vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>  *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The premise of your post was that he was breaking into homes when people
>>> were there. Now you're inventing his motive to kill you. No, if he saw your
>>> face, he'd be a believer, not a killer.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sunil
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:56:57 -0800
>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>  It didn't say he was. If he did, though, I'd want to be able to
>>> protect myself if he ran across me in a home he thought was empty and he
>>> got it through his head that I had to die because I'd seen his face. Or
>>> maybe he's desperate, and now he's willing to try hitting a house that is
>>> occupied but looks like he could rob it regardless.
>>>
>>> It's a tool of preparedness. I'd rather not assume that he's harmless if
>>> he's breaking into houses and robbing them. If my assumption is wrong, I
>>> could die. I'd rather not throw away my chance at survival because "OMG!
>>> Guns are bad!"
>>>
>>> It doesn't mean, by the way, that I'd just shoot this guy for breaking
>>> into my house. But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent, and if it turns out
>>> my life is at stake, I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could throw at
>>> him, or whatever I happened to have at hand.
>>>
>>> This isn't rocket science. Be prepared. It's the good old Boy Scout
>>> motto. I also have a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher.
>>>
>>> Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!" narrative drive your views.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> Where does it say he's breaking into homes when people are in? I had a
>>> lot of burglary cases, and my mistakenly charged clients were usually
>>> alleged to have entered homes when no one was there. Lots easier to leave
>>> with stuff that way, said the authorities.
>>>
>>> Sunil
>>>
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800
>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>> To: thansen at moscow.com
>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>
>>>
>>>  What's paranoid about locking up when you're out and being ready to
>>> defend yourself when you're at home when there is a known burglar in the
>>> area? Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid. If someone is
>>> crazy enough to break into your home while you are there, you can go ahead
>>> and classify that as a situation fraught with danger, in which case having
>>> some means to protect yourself might be called for. There are plenty of
>>> reasonable scenarios where a would-be burglar happens upon a member of the
>>> household when he thought the place was empty that could end up very badly
>>> for the person he stumbled upon. If the burglar knew you were at home and
>>> invaded the home anyway, then you've definitely got a problem if you are
>>> happily unarmed.
>>>
>>> Better to have that gun when you need it than not. If guns frighten you,
>>> which I find hard to believe because of your military background, then at
>>> least pick up a good aluminum baseball bat.
>>>
>>> Do you think I'm paranoid because I keep a set of jumper cables in my
>>> trunk in case my battery dies and I need a jump from a kind stranger? Are
>>> you one of those people that joyously flit from situation to situation
>>> relying on the gods to keep you out of trouble?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <ATT00001>
>>>
>>> Paranoia . . . self-destroya.
>>>
>>>
>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>
>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>
>>>  Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>
>>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  - John Lennon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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