[Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
Art Deco
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
Wed Feb 20 15:05:12 PST 2013
@Gary,
At first glance, yours is an elegant solution. But alas, in practice the
situations may be much more complex. Everyone here can think of scenarios
where your simple scenario would not apply. For instance, what if the
intruder is between the occupant and their weapons, or unknown to the
occupant there are two or more armed intruders, or the intruder(s) care
little for human life, etc.
First, I am not against using a firearm in order to deter a theft attempt.
In some cases, other means are possible, and if practical, those would be
my preference. It would all depend on how I assesses the probability of
the answers to the questions I proposed above.
Lethal force is generally justified at law if the someone has a reasonable
belief that they, loved ones, etc are in eminent danger of grievous bodily
harm or death. This criteria is a bit ambiguous and various courts and
juries have interpreted it differently.
How does one determine with certainty that a theft attempt by armed a
person(s) constitute includes what would be called an eminent threat of
grievous bodily harm or death?
I don't know. But, when my loved ones, friends, etc are at risk, I am
going to err on the side of protecting them and myself. If the only, and
much less risky alternative with possibly lethal results is to kill or
serious main them, that's what I'd do. If there were other less invasive
actions with a high probability of success, I'd chose one them first.
The risk of losing a loved one, friend, etc to someone engaging in a
criminal act, and then having to live with the cowardly act of inaction if
something bad happened to them or me is not something I'd want to live with.
w.
On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 5:33 PM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>wrote:
> The problem does not seem at all insurmountable.
>
> Problem, person(s) force entry to ones home without invitation.
>
> Solution. Point weapon in general direction of intruder and request
> (insist) they leave.
>
> Outcome. They comply or they do not.
>
> Compliance equals positive resolution to problem.
>
> Noncompliance results in negative outcome for intruder.
>
> The real problem stems from not having the proper tools to affect the
> desired outcome.
>
> g
>
> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> The problem of dealing with intruders involves sometimes a dangerous lack
>> of information.
>>
>> Is the intruder armed?
>>
>> Is there more than one?
>>
>> What are the intentions of of the intruder?
>>
>> Who is the intruder? Is she/he someone known? What is the relevant
>> history of the intruder?
>>
>> Are there effective/non-lethal ways of neutralizing the intruder?
>>
>> How can those intruded upon calculate the the risk to themselves, and
>> decide upon the action to be taken?
>>
>>
>> w.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> These are empirically claims. Could be that pulling out a gun increases
>>> your risk. It depends on a lot of factors.
>>>
>>> The big question is: does the potential for help outweigh the risk of
>>> harm?
>>>
>>> And I hate to tell you that in a region with a low incidence of gun
>>> violence, the answer is 'No.' Paul's weapons are more likely to cause him
>>> harm than they are to protect him.
>>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Gary Crabtree <moscowlocksmith at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Once "he" becomes aware of said gun it becomes a powerful deterrent to
>>> staying in your house much less helping himself to your belongings or
>>> continued good health.
>>>
>>> g
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 6:56 AM, Joe Campbell <
>>> philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is what listening to pop music can do to you!
>>>>
>>>> Paul: If he's in your house, then the gun was not a deterrent.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 6:12 AM, Sunil Ramalingam <
>>>> sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But not in a judgmental way. I'm too busy singing to put anybody down.
>>>>
>>>> sr
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> From: jampot at roadrunner.com
>>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>> Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 06:02:11 -0800
>>>>
>>>> Now you're just monkeeing around.
>>>>
>>>> g
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 19, 2013 11:07 PM
>>>> *Cc:* vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>>
>>>> The premise of your post was that he was breaking into homes when
>>>> people were there. Now you're inventing his motive to kill you. No, if he
>>>> saw your face, he'd be a believer, not a killer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sunil
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 22:56:57 -0800
>>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>>> To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It didn't say he was. If he did, though, I'd want to be able to
>>>> protect myself if he ran across me in a home he thought was empty and he
>>>> got it through his head that I had to die because I'd seen his face. Or
>>>> maybe he's desperate, and now he's willing to try hitting a house that is
>>>> occupied but looks like he could rob it regardless.
>>>>
>>>> It's a tool of preparedness. I'd rather not assume that he's harmless
>>>> if he's breaking into houses and robbing them. If my assumption is wrong,
>>>> I could die. I'd rather not throw away my chance at survival because
>>>> "OMG! Guns are bad!"
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't mean, by the way, that I'd just shoot this guy for breaking
>>>> into my house. But a loaded weapon is a good deterrent, and if it turns
>>>> out my life is at stake, I'd rather have a gun than a shoe I could throw at
>>>> him, or whatever I happened to have at hand.
>>>>
>>>> This isn't rocket science. Be prepared. It's the good old Boy Scout
>>>> motto. I also have a smoke detector and a fire extinguisher.
>>>>
>>>> Don't let the "guns are killing our kids!" narrative drive your views.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On 02/19/2013 10:43 PM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Paul,
>>>>
>>>> Where does it say he's breaking into homes when people are in? I had a
>>>> lot of burglary cases, and my mistakenly charged clients were usually
>>>> alleged to have entered homes when no one was there. Lots easier to leave
>>>> with stuff that way, said the authorities.
>>>>
>>>> Sunil
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2013 19:02:25 -0800
>>>> From: godshatter at yahoo.com
>>>> To: thansen at moscow.com
>>>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hmmm . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's paranoid about locking up when you're out and being ready to
>>>> defend yourself when you're at home when there is a known burglar in the
>>>> area? Being prepared is not the same thing as being paranoid. If someone
>>>> is crazy enough to break into your home while you are there, you can go
>>>> ahead and classify that as a situation fraught with danger, in which case
>>>> having some means to protect yourself might be called for. There are
>>>> plenty of reasonable scenarios where a would-be burglar happens upon a
>>>> member of the household when he thought the place was empty that could end
>>>> up very badly for the person he stumbled upon. If the burglar knew you
>>>> were at home and invaded the home anyway, then you've definitely got a
>>>> problem if you are happily unarmed.
>>>>
>>>> Better to have that gun when you need it than not. If guns frighten
>>>> you, which I find hard to believe because of your military background, then
>>>> at least pick up a good aluminum baseball bat.
>>>>
>>>> Do you think I'm paranoid because I keep a set of jumper cables in my
>>>> trunk in case my battery dies and I need a jump from a kind stranger? Are
>>>> you one of those people that joyously flit from situation to situation
>>>> relying on the gods to keep you out of trouble?
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On 02/19/2013 01:18 PM, Tom Hansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <ATT00001>
>>>>
>>>> Paranoia . . . self-destroya.
>>>>
>>>> Seeya round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>>>
>>>> "Moscow Cares"
>>>> http://www.MoscowCares.com
>>>>
>>>> Tom "Proud to be a Filthy Liberal Scum" Hansen
>>>> Moscow, Idaho
>>>>
>>>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still
>>>> But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
>>>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>>>
>>>> - John Lennon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> =======================================================
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
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>>>> =======================================================
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com <Vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> =======================================================
>>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> =======================================================
>>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>> http://www.fsr.net
>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> =======================================================
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> =======================================================
>> List services made available by First Step Internet,
>> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>> http://www.fsr.net
>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>> =======================================================
>>
>
>
--
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com
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