[Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1

Mon Dec 30 00:55:06 PST 2013

Sorry...it was not my intention to gloss over, sidestep, dance around, etc. a major sticking point regarding dogma of the churches.  Janesta's comments were much better and more straighforward as was your reply to her.

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 22:05:32 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1
From: keim153 at gmail.com
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
CC: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Scott, I like how you completely gloss over my point that losing large chunks of their membership by not representing the opinions of their partnering organizations would be problematic.  Nicely done, Sir!

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

<And how would that help, Scott?>
If they removed restrictions, it would keep this issue out of the courtrooms and out of the news.  This continuing battle is bad PR for the boy scouts.

<To do so would risk massive problems for the organization.  Do you think they initially made those restrictions just for fun?>
I think they made these restrictions out of ignorance.  What massive problems would there be for organizations to simply stay mum on homosexuality specifically wrt to the scouts?

<What are those organizations stances on homosexuality?>
Archaic.  If they haven't notices already, they're bad losing the issue of 'homsexuality is verboten'.  The younger crowd isn't as hung up about it as are the old dogs that are incapable of adapting to change.  Gay rights are not only sweeping the states, they are sweeping the globe.

If the scouts are concerned about pedophiles (as they should be), then they should restrict pedophiles from being scout masters which would be an uncontentious restriction.  Instead they ban gays which is barking up the wrong tree.

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 18:54:42 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1
From: keim153 at gmail.com

To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
CC: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

And how would that help, Scott?  To do so would risk massive problems for the organization.  Do you think they initially made those restrictions just for fun?  They made them to represent the interests and beliefs of the organizations that charter (i.e. own) their troops.  Who are those organizations, you ask?  The three largest are the Methodist, LDS and Catholic churches.  What are those organizations stances on homosexuality?

On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

It's not a victory for the Boy Scouts.  It's a partial victory for gays.  The Boy Scouts could diffuse this whole issue by making it a non-issue and just removing whatever other restrictions that have remaining against ho-mo-sexuals (I think they struggle with even enunciated that word).

-Scott

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 15:28:58 -0800
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1

To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; thansen at moscow.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

If bigots leave the Boy Scouts, or any organization, because there are gay people in it, they are going to be very limited to the organizations they can join. This is a victory for the Boy Scouts and most organizations to be rid of these people. 

Donovan J. Arnold 

   On Sunday, December 29, 2013 2:27 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

    Shocker.  You might also want to note that the Idaho state constitution bans same sex marriage as a parallel to how inter racial marriages were banned in some states until 1967.

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1

From: thansen at moscow.comDate: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:41:12 -0800CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

To: scooterd408 at hotmail.comMr. Dredge . . . Mr. Dredge . . . Mr. Dredge . . . The purpose
 of my posting of the article was to emphasize the similarity between the "good ol'boys" of 1950s Mississippi and the Kootenai County Sheriff.   The only difference between the targets of disdain is that gays can hide their gayness easier than people of color can hide their blackness.  This can prove to be a "cancer" to gay children as they are reminded regularly and constantly that they are a sin . . . as they hide.

Please continue, Mr. Dredge . . .Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . ."Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

http://www.MoscowCares.com  Tom
 HansenMoscow, Idaho"There's room at the top they are telling you still.But first you must learn to smile as you kill,

If you want to be like the folks on the hill."- John LennonOn Dec 29, 2013, at 1:21 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

I don't think you're susceptible to being enlightened if you can't grasp the trend that Darrell mentioned (some troops folding and others facing declining membership) and the linked article you just posted regarding pulling of sponsor support.

Do you understand the analogy of 'winning the battle and losing the war' as applied to the scouts?  Or would it be easier for you to understand if I posted a cartoon of a swirling vortex of scouts going down a drain?

If not, please continue to remain unenlightened despite all of the writing on the wall and directly here on the viz.

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to
 open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1From: thansen at moscow.comDate: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:04:14 -0800

CC: vision2020 at moscow.comTo: scooterd408 at hotmail.com

Enlighten us, Mr. Dredge.How is the "fixing" going to "obliterate the Scouts once and for all"?

I do recall, however, the Kootenai County Sheriff threatening to withdraw sanctioning the Boy Scouts if gays were
 admitted.http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/may/25/kootenai-county-sheriff-drop-departments-boy-scout/

Please continue . . .Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .

"Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)http://www.MoscowCares.com

  Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho"There's room at the top they
 are telling you still.But first you must learn to smile as you kill,If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

- John LennonOn Dec 29, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

<Isn't irony great?>I wouldn't say irony is great, but I am routinely amused by those who are completely oblivious to the wide variety of ironic opinions that they post.

Tom write:<There have been gays in the military since before Valley Forge. 
 I'm guessin' that there have been gay Boy Scouts since its inception.>You're probably right Tom.  So it's kind of puzzling that there was no issue with gays in the military and in the Boy Scouts since their inceptions back in the dark ages and it finally dawned on a few like yourself that there was something unbroken that for some reason needed fixing.  And now the result of the so-called fixing is going to obliterate the Scouts once and for all.  You really showed them who was boss.

Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:16:56 -0800From: keim153 at gmail.com

To: vision2020 at moscow.comSubject: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1

Indeed.  After all, there is some evidence they were founded by a gay man.  http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/scoutings-gay-founder.html

Isn't irony great?On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com> wrote:

Yes.  It will be very interesting.Unlike bigotry, gay is NOT a choice a person makes.Another thing . . . 

If people think that by barring gays from the Boy Scouts, there have not been, nor will there be, any gays in the Boy Scouts, they are sadly mistaken.There have been gays in the military since before Valley Forge.  I'm guessin' that there have been gay Boy Scouts since its inception.

Denying a person access to a public organization, based solely on a birth-acquired attribute, is WRONG!Last time I looked at the calendar and looked outside, I am reminded that this is 2013 in the American northwest, NOT the 1950s in Mississippi.

Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . ."Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

http://www.MoscowCares.com  
Tom HansenMoscow, Idaho
"There's room at the top they are telling you still.But first you must learn to smile as you kill,
If you want to be like the folks on the hill."- John Lennon
On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:

It will be interesting to see the impact on national membership.  Antecdotally, I know of severayouth that have resigned and a few units that folded in protest.  The local council is expecting to lose membership this year.  But, local membership has been shrinking for several years.  Latah and Whitman county membership has shrunk about 25% since I resigned as coordinator in 08.

On Sunday, December 29, 2013, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com> wrote:> BSA leading the way . . .

> </mail/u/0/s/?view=att&th=1433eef866b1cc1c&attid=0.0.1.1&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1>

> Courtesy of CBS News at:> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boy-scouts-of-america-outlines-opens-ranks-to-gay-youths-on-jan-1/

> --------------------------------->> Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1>> The Boy Scouts of America will accept openly gay youths starting on New Year's Day, a historic change that has prompted the BSA to ponder a host of potential complications - ranging from policies on tentmates and showers to whether Scouts can march in gay pride parades.

>> Yet despite their be-prepared approach, BSA leaders are rooting for the change to be a non-event, comparable to another New Year's Day in 2000 when widespread fears of digital-clock chaos to start the new millennium proved unfounded.

>> "My hope is there will be the same effect this Jan. 1 as the Y2K scare," said Brad Haddock, a BSA national executive board member who chairs the policy implementation committee. "It's business as usual, nothing happens and we move forward." 

>>  Some churches are dropping their sponsorship of Scout units because of the new policy and some families are switching to a new conservative alternative called Trail Life USA. But massive defections haven't materialized and most major sponsors, including the Roman Catholic and Mormon churches, are maintaining ties.

>> "There hasn't been a whole lot of fallout," said Haddock, a lawyer from Wichita, Kan. "If a church said they wouldn't work with us, we'd have a church right down the street say, 'We'll take the troop.'" 

>>  The new policy was approved in May, with support from 60 percent of the 1,400 voting members of the BSA's National Council. The vote followed bitter nationwide debate, and was accompanied by an announcement that the BSA would continue to exclude openly gay adults from leadership positions.

>> Under the new membership policy, youths can no longer be barred from the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts or coed Venturers program solely on the basis of sexual orientation. However, gay Scouts will face some limitations.

>> "Any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting," says one BSA document. "No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or political position or agenda, including on the matter of sexual orientation."

>> Trying to anticipate potential friction, the BSA has distributed extensive explanations and question-and-answer documents related to the policy.>> Some examples:

>> Could a Scout march in uniform in a gay-pride parade? No, says the BSA. "Each youth member is free as an individual to express his or her thoughts or take action on political or social issues but must not use Scouting's official uniforms and insignia when doing so."

> How publicly active could a gay Scout be, in terms of gay-rights advocacy? The BSA's reply: "While a youth member may acknowledge his or her sexual preference, that acknowledgment may not reach the level of distraction, which may include advocacy, promotion, or the distribution of information of a sexual nature."

>> A frequently-asked-questions document anticipates that some objections might surface from parents - or Scouts themselves - in cases where a unit includes an openly gay boy.>

> Regarding shower and toilet facilities, the BSA says it is encouraging units to provide greater individual privacy, including moving away from the tradition of group showers.

>> "The adult leaders have the discretion to arrange private showering times and locations," the BSA says.>> Sleeping arrangements also are addressed, with specific decisions left to unit leaders.

>> "If a Scout or parent of a Scout makes a request to not tent with another Scout, their wishes should be honored," says the BSA.>> Haddock says "isolated pockets" of problems are likely to surface, but overall he expects adult leaders will have the skills to defuse potential conflicts.

>> There are about 1 million adult leaders and 2.6 million youth members in Scouting in the U.S. Of the roughly 110,000 Scout units, 70 percent are sponsored by religious organizations, including several conservative denominations that had long supported the BSA's exclusion of gay youth and gay adults.

>> Among the major sponsors, the Southern Baptist Convention made clear its disappointment with the new youth policy, but left the decision on whether to cut ties up to local churches. An SBC spokesman, Sing Oldham, said it was not known how many churches have done so.

>> The biggest sponsor of Scout units - the Utah-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - commended the BSA for a "thoughtful, good-faith effort" to address a challenging issue, and said it would stay engaged in Scouting.

>>  John Gailey of the Utah National Parks Council, the nation's largest council, said its youth membership had increased from 74,148 in December 2012 to 75,863 this month.>

> Like the Mormons, the Roman Catholic Church has generally accepted the new policy. Many parishes will continue to sponsor Scout units, though a few have considered cutting ties.

>> The National Catholic Committee on Scouting posted a question-and-answer document on its website, delving into the intersection of Scouting policy and Catholic teaching.>

> "The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that individuals who disclose a same-sex attraction are to be treated with the same dignity due all human beings ... and also teaches that engaging in sexual activity outside of marriage is always immoral," says the Q-and-A, concluding that the new BSA policy does not contradict Catholic teaching.

>> The ultimate decision on whether parishes would maintain or cut ties with the BSA was left to individual bishops. Several expressed cautious support for continuing in Scouting.>

> "As the new policy currently stands, I see no reason to prohibit our parishes from sponsoring Boy Scout troops," said Rev. Kevin Rhoades, bishop of Indiana's Fort Wayne-South Bend diocese. "At the same time, it is critical that we be vigilant on how this new policy is interpreted and implemented."

>> One likely target of such scrutiny will be former Defense Secretary Robert Gates, scheduled to take over in the spring as the BSA's next president. As leader of the Pentagon, Gates helped change the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy banning openly gay soldiers, and gay-rights groups hope he will try to end the BSA's ban on gay adult leaders.

>> The new youth policy was approved during a BSA meeting in May in the Dallas-Fort Worth suburb of Grapevine, near the Scouts' national headquarters in Irving, Texas.>

> Texas has a long heritage of Scouting, with tens of thousands of youth members and many families claiming generations of Eagle Scouts. Among them is Gov. Rick Perry, who achieved Scouting's highest rank growing up in the small town of Paint Creek.

>> The membership debate was closely followed by local Scouts on both sides; some carried signs and held rallies outside the meeting place. But in subsequent months, the debate has quieted.

>> Bill Helfand, scoutmaster of Troop 55 in Houston, said membership in his troop has remained steady at about 225 boys.

>> "We never considered sexual orientation, and I don't think many troops really did," Helfand said. "I don't know whether we had Scouts who are homosexual. I don't inquire ... It's not a matter of concern."

>> Helfand said the membership debate, while closely covered in the media, did not extend into his meetings with leaders and parents, besides occasional discussion of the policy at camp-outs. He says he hasn't talked to any Scout about his sexual orientation and doesn't intend to.

>> "I know that this is something that people felt was a momentous turning point for Scouting," Helfand said. "Everybody I know has made Scouting available to every boy who wants it, and that's what we continue to do."

>> However, some Texas parents and leaders have decided to switch to Trail Life USA, an alternative which declares itself "a Christian adventure, character, and leadership program for young men." Among them is Ron Orr, a business consultant from the Fort Worth area who is signing up local units for the group.

>> So far, he said he has 25 groups "pre-chartered" for a Jan. 1 launch date in the territory covered by the BSA's Circle Ten and Longhorn councils. That's modest compared to the 39,000 Scouts served by the Circle Ten council alone.

>> Orr is part of a family with four generations of Eagle Scouts. His older son recently earned his Eagle rank and his younger son was on the verge of doing likewise. But Orr said he could not stand by after the policy change.

>> "As Christians, from a scriptural basis, we love all folks, but the scripture is very clear that being homosexual is a sin," Orr said. "We've got to be able to hold a strong line and set a consistent example for our young men."

>> Orr said his decision to cut ties with the BSA rested in part on the Scout Oath, which includes the admonition to remain "morally straight.">> Scott Scarborough of Lubbock, Texas, is helping Orr recruit Trail Life members in the Texas Panhandle, a mostly rural, conservative region. Scarborough said he offered to let his 14-year-old son stay in Boy Scouts and achieve his Eagle rank, but the boy elected to join him in Trail Life.

>> Orr and Scarborough said they didn't consider themselves rivals to the Boy Scouts, though they've chosen a different path.>> "Our tradition comes out of Boy Scouts," Scarborough said. "We'll never not honor that heritage."

>> -------------------->> Boy Scouts are shown lining up before marching in the Utah Gay Pride Parade Sunday, June 2, 2013, in Salt Lake City. Members of Scouts for Equality marched in the parade following last week's vote by Boy Scouts of America to allow openly gay youth to participate in scouting. 

>> <https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/GV3iLR_58ARnas5WEZS-mTXwOBm74sjt0Cx6cuZqJLnlkISH3IwQPQBFuPit0n_B97-ZTD_Sa5jbXU3QBHdS83mZcDIrPUINAuUXNnIax0udr3pGLMYffgXOX5NWF75espqsL6eYmkpD3mlHVzUkWuBN3yXjgmSwmgm6t-f_xaAgPwAdg_-Pat-RerOvgdPAeXi4R6Dnh8wlqIsn50mQ8AzL3_8WCYc67ra2UsAhFtzaTB9jceMLYFkM-pOA3mmV09Vg=s0-d-e1-ft#http://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2013/06/12/08d6122b-1c52-11e3-9918-005056850598/thumbnail/620x350/boy-scouts-AP583171551888.jpg?hash=278638e2e835bca19217d48d01f7faf2>

>> --------------------------------->> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)

> http://www.moscowcares.com/

>   > Tom Hansen> Moscow, Idaho> "There's room at the top they are telling you still.> But first you must learn to smile as you kill,

> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."

> - John Lennon

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=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net/
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  
======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

               http://www.fsr.net/          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

======================================================= 		 	   		  

======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet,

 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.               http://www.fsr.net/          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

=======================================================

=======================================================

 List services made available by First Step Internet,

 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

               http://www.fsr.net

          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

=======================================================

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