[Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1

[Darrell Keim]

Of course, that is the irony of the whole situation.  The last thing a
Scouting experience is about is sexuality.


On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Janesta <janesta at gmail.com> wrote:

> In my opinion, the Scouts will unravel because a lot of groups are
> affiliated with churches.
> The churches, and parents involved have just as much right to leave the
> scouts, as a
> young man who is gay has a right to attend.
>
> Personally, if I had young kids and ANY kind of sex were being discussed,
> they would be
> pulled from the group. It is my responsibility to discuss "whatever" kind
> of sex with my kids.
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2013 at 2:21 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>> I don't think you're susceptible to being enlightened if you can't grasp
>> the trend that Darrell mentioned (some troops folding and others facing
>> declining membership) and the linked article you just posted regarding
>> pulling of sponsor support.
>>
>> Do you understand the analogy of 'winning the battle and losing the war'
>> as applied to the scouts?  Or would it be easier for you to understand if I
>> posted a cartoon of a swirling vortex of scouts going down a drain?
>>
>> If not, please continue to remain unenlightened despite all of the
>> writing on the wall and directly here on the viz.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks
>> to gay youths on Jan. 1
>> From: thansen at moscow.com
>> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 13:04:14 -0800
>> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
>>
>>
>> Enlighten us, Mr. Dredge.
>>
>> How is the "fixing" going to "obliterate the Scouts once and for all"?
>>
>> I do recall, however, the Kootenai County Sheriff threatening to withdraw
>> sanctioning the Boy Scouts if gays were admitted.
>>
>>
>> http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/may/25/kootenai-county-sheriff-drop-departments-boy-scout/
>>
>> Please continue . . .
>>
>> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still.
>> But first you must learn to smile as you kill,
>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>
>> - John Lennon
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2013, at 12:45 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> <Isn't irony great?>
>> I wouldn't say irony is great, but I am routinely amused by those who are
>> completely oblivious to the wide variety of ironic opinions that they post.
>>
>> Tom write:
>> <There have been gays in the military since before Valley Forge.  I'm
>> guessin' that there have been gay Boy Scouts since its inception.>
>> You're probably right Tom.  So it's kind of puzzling that there was no
>> issue with gays in the military and in the Boy Scouts since their
>> inceptions back in the dark ages and it finally dawned on a few like
>> yourself that there was something unbroken that for some reason needed
>> fixing.  And now the result of the so-called fixing is going to obliterate
>> the Scouts once and for all.  You really showed them who was boss.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2013 11:16:56 -0800
>> From: keim153 at gmail.com
>> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>> Subject: [Vision2020] Fwd: Fwd: Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to
>> gay youths on Jan. 1
>>
>>
>>
>> Indeed.  After all, there is some evidence they were founded by a gay
>> man.
>> http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/07/20/opinion/scoutings-gay-founder.html
>>
>> Isn't irony great?
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:43 AM, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Yes.  It will be very interesting.
>>
>> Unlike bigotry, gay is NOT a choice a person makes.
>>
>> Another thing . . .
>>
>> If people think that by barring gays from the Boy Scouts, there have not
>> been, nor will there be, any gays in the Boy Scouts, they are sadly
>> mistaken.
>>
>> There have been gays in the military since before Valley Forge.  I'm
>> guessin' that there have been gay Boy Scouts since its inception.
>>
>> Denying a person access to a public organization, based solely on a
>> birth-acquired attribute, is WRONG!
>>
>> Last time I looked at the calendar and looked outside, I am reminded that
>> this is 2013 in the American northwest, NOT the 1950s in Mississippi.
>>
>> Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>>
>> "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>> http://www.MoscowCares.com <http://www.moscowcares.com/>
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>> Moscow, Idaho
>>
>> "There's room at the top they are telling you still.
>> But first you must learn to smile as you kill,
>> If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>>
>> - John Lennon
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2013, at 10:22 AM, Darrell Keim <keim153 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It will be interesting to see the impact on national membership.
>>  Antecdotally, I know of severayouth that have resigned and a few units
>> that folded in protest.  The local council is expecting to lose membership
>> this year.  But, local membership has been shrinking for several years.
>>  Latah and Whitman county membership has shrunk about 25% since I resigned
>> as coordinator in 08.
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, December 29, 2013, Moscow Cares <moscowcares at moscow.com>
>> wrote:
>> > BSA leading the way . . .
>> >
>> </mail/u/0/s/?view=att&th=1433eef866b1cc1c&attid=0.0.1.1&disp=emb&zw&atsh=1>
>>
>> > Courtesy of CBS News at:
>> >
>> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/boy-scouts-of-america-outlines-opens-ranks-to-gay-youths-on-jan-1/
>> > ---------------------------------
>> >
>> > Boy Scouts of America to open ranks to gay youths on Jan. 1
>> >
>> > The Boy Scouts of America will accept openly gay youths starting on New
>> Year's Day, a historic change that has prompted the BSA to ponder a host of
>> potential complications - ranging from policies on tentmates and showers to
>> whether Scouts can march in gay pride parades.
>> >
>> > Yet despite their be-prepared approach, BSA leaders are rooting for the
>> change to be a non-event, comparable to another New Year's Day in 2000 when
>> widespread fears of digital-clock chaos to start the new millennium proved
>> unfounded.
>> >
>> > "My hope is there will be the same effect this Jan. 1 as the Y2K
>> scare," said Brad Haddock, a BSA national executive board member who chairs
>> the policy implementation committee. "It's business as usual, nothing
>> happens and we move forward."
>> >
>> >  Some churches are dropping their sponsorship of Scout units because of
>> the new policy and some families are switching to a new conservative
>> alternative called Trail Life USA. But massive defections haven't
>> materialized and most major sponsors, including the Roman Catholic and
>> Mormon churches, are maintaining ties.
>> >
>> > "There hasn't been a whole lot of fallout," said Haddock, a lawyer from
>> Wichita, Kan. "If a church said they wouldn't work with us, we'd have a
>> church right down the street say, 'We'll take the troop.'"
>> >
>> >  The new policy was approved in May, with support from 60 percent of
>> the 1,400 voting members of the BSA's National Council. The vote followed
>> bitter nationwide debate, and was accompanied by an announcement that the
>> BSA would continue to exclude openly gay adults from leadership positions.
>> >
>> > Under the new membership policy, youths can no longer be barred from
>> the Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts or coed Venturers program solely on the basis of
>> sexual orientation. However, gay Scouts will face some limitations.
>> >
>> > "Any sexual conduct, whether heterosexual or homosexual, by youth of
>> Scouting age is contrary to the virtues of Scouting," says one BSA
>> document. "No member may use Scouting to promote or advance any social or
>> political position or agenda, including on the matter of sexual
>> orientation."
>> >
>> > Trying to anticipate potential friction, the BSA has
>> distributed extensive explanations and question-and-answer
>> documents related to the policy.
>> >
>> > Some examples:
>> >
>> > Could a Scout march in uniform in a gay-pride parade? No, says the BSA.
>> "Each youth member is free as an individual to express his or her thoughts
>> or take action on political or social issues but must not use Scouting's
>> official uniforms and insignia when doing so."
>> > How publicly active could a gay Scout be, in terms of gay-rights
>> advocacy? The BSA's reply: "While a youth member may acknowledge his or her
>> sexual preference, that acknowledgment may not reach the level of
>> distraction, which may include advocacy, promotion, or the distribution of
>> information of a sexual nature."
>> >
>> > A frequently-asked-questions document anticipates that some objections
>> might surface from parents - or Scouts themselves - in cases where a unit
>> includes an openly gay boy.
>> >
>> > Regarding shower and toilet facilities, the BSA says it is encouraging
>> units to provide greater individual privacy, including moving away from the
>> tradition of group showers.
>> >
>> > "The adult leaders have the discretion to arrange private showering
>> times and locations," the BSA says.
>> >
>> > Sleeping arrangements also are addressed, with specific decisions left
>> to unit leaders.
>> >
>> > "If a Scout or parent of a Scout makes a request to not tent with
>> another Scout, their wishes should be honored," says the BSA.
>> >
>> > Haddock says "isolated pockets" of problems are likely to surface, but
>> overall he expects adult leaders will have the skills to defuse potential
>> conflicts.
>> >
>> > There are about 1 million adult leaders and 2.6 million youth members
>> in Scouting in the U.S. Of the roughly 110,000 Scout units, 70 percent are
>> sponsored by religious organizations, including several conservative
>> denominations that had long supported the BSA's exclusion of gay youth and
>> gay adults.
>> >
>> > Among the major sponsors, the Southern Baptist Convention made clear
>> its disappointment with the new youth policy, but left the decision on
>> whether to cut ties up to local churches. An SBC spokesman, Sing Oldham,
>> said it was not known how many churches have done so.
>> >
>> > The biggest sponsor of Scout units - the Utah-based Church of Jesus
>> Christ of Latter-day Saints - commended the BSA for a "thoughtful,
>> good-faith effort" to address a challenging issue, and said it would stay
>> engaged in Scouting.
>> >
>> >  John Gailey of the Utah National Parks Council, the nation's largest
>> council, said its youth membership had increased from 74,148 in December
>> 2012 to 75,863 this month.
>> >
>> > Like the Mormons, the Roman Catholic Church has generally accepted the
>> new policy. Many parishes will continue to sponsor Scout units, though a
>> few have considered cutting ties.
>> >
>> > The National Catholic Committee on Scouting posted a
>> question-and-answer document on its website, delving into the intersection
>> of Scouting policy and Catholic teaching.
>> >
>> > "The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that individuals who
>> disclose a same-sex attraction are to be treated with the same dignity due
>> all human beings ... and also teaches that engaging in sexual activity
>> outside of marriage is always immoral," says the Q-and-A, concluding that
>> the new BSA policy does not contradict Catholic teaching.
>> >
>> > The ultimate decision on whether parishes would maintain or cut ties
>> with the BSA was left to individual bishops. Several expressed cautious
>> support for continuing in Scouting.
>> >
>> > "As the new policy currently stands, I see no reason to prohibit our
>> parishes from sponsoring Boy Scout troops," said Rev. Kevin Rhoades, bishop
>> of Indiana's Fort Wayne-South Bend diocese. "At the same time, it is
>> critical that we be vigilant on how this new policy is interpreted and
>> implemented."
>> >
>> > One likely target of such scrutiny will be former Defense Secretary
>> Robert Gates, scheduled to take over in the spring as the BSA's next
>> president. As leader of the Pentagon, Gates helped change the military's
>> "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy banning openly gay soldiers, and gay-rights
>> groups hope he will try to end the BSA's ban on gay adult leaders.
>> >
>> > The new youth policy was approved during a BSA meeting in May in the
>> Dallas-Fort Worth suburb of Grapevine, near the Scouts' national
>> headquarters in Irving, Texas.
>> >
>> > Texas has a long heritage of Scouting, with tens of thousands of youth
>> members and many families claiming generations of Eagle Scouts. Among them
>> is Gov. Rick Perry, who achieved Scouting's highest rank growing up in the
>> small town of Paint Creek.
>> >
>> > The membership debate was closely followed by local Scouts on both
>> sides; some carried signs and held rallies outside the meeting place. But
>> in subsequent months, the debate has quieted.
>> >
>> > Bill Helfand, scoutmaster of Troop 55 in Houston, said membership in
>> his troop has remained steady at about 225 boys.
>> >
>> > "We never considered sexual orientation, and I don't think many troops
>> really did," Helfand said. "I don't know whether we had Scouts who are
>> homosexual. I don't inquire ... It's not a matter of concern."
>> >
>> > Helfand said the membership debate, while closely covered in the media,
>> did not extend into his meetings with leaders and parents, besides
>> occasional discussion of the policy at camp-outs. He says he hasn't talked
>> to any Scout about his sexual orientation and doesn't intend to.
>> >
>> > "I know that this is something that people felt was a momentous turning
>> point for Scouting," Helfand said. "Everybody I know has made Scouting
>> available to every boy who wants it, and that's what we continue to do."
>> >
>> > However, some Texas parents and leaders have decided to switch to Trail
>> Life USA, an alternative which declares itself "a Christian adventure,
>> character, and leadership program for young men." Among them is Ron Orr, a
>> business consultant from the Fort Worth area who is signing up local units
>> for the group.
>> >
>> > So far, he said he has 25 groups "pre-chartered" for a Jan. 1 launch
>> date in the territory covered by the BSA's Circle Ten and Longhorn
>> councils. That's modest compared to the 39,000 Scouts served by the Circle
>> Ten council alone.
>> >
>> > Orr is part of a family with four generations of Eagle Scouts. His
>> older son recently earned his Eagle rank and his younger son was on the
>> verge of doing likewise. But Orr said he could not stand by after the
>> policy change.
>> >
>> > "As Christians, from a scriptural basis, we love all folks, but the
>> scripture is very clear that being homosexual is a sin," Orr said. "We've
>> got to be able to hold a strong line and set a consistent example for our
>> young men."
>> >
>> > Orr said his decision to cut ties with the BSA rested in part on the
>> Scout Oath, which includes the admonition to remain "morally straight."
>> >
>> > Scott Scarborough of Lubbock, Texas, is helping Orr recruit Trail Life
>> members in the Texas Panhandle, a mostly rural, conservative region.
>> Scarborough said he offered to let his 14-year-old son stay in Boy Scouts
>> and achieve his Eagle rank, but the boy elected to join him in Trail Life.
>> >
>> > Orr and Scarborough said they didn't consider themselves rivals to the
>> Boy Scouts, though they've chosen a different path.
>> >
>> > "Our tradition comes out of Boy Scouts," Scarborough said. "We'll never
>> not honor that heritage."
>> >
>> > --------------------
>> >
>> > Boy Scouts are shown lining up before marching in the Utah Gay Pride
>> Parade Sunday, June 2, 2013, in Salt Lake City. Members of Scouts for
>> Equality marched in the parade following last week's vote by Boy Scouts of
>> America to allow openly gay youth to participate in scouting.
>> >
>> > <
>> https://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/GV3iLR_58ARnas5WEZS-mTXwOBm74sjt0Cx6cuZqJLnlkISH3IwQPQBFuPit0n_B97-ZTD_Sa5jbXU3QBHdS83mZcDIrPUINAuUXNnIax0udr3pGLMYffgXOX5NWF75espqsL6eYmkpD3mlHVzUkWuBN3yXjgmSwmgm6t-f_xaAgPwAdg_-Pat-RerOvgdPAeXi4R6Dnh8wlqIsn50mQ8AzL3_8WCYc67ra2UsAhFtzaTB9jceMLYFkM-pOA3mmV09Vg=s0-d-e1-ft#http://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2013/06/12/08d6122b-1c52-11e3-9918-005056850598/thumbnail/620x350/boy-scouts-AP583171551888.jpg?hash=278638e2e835bca19217d48d01f7faf2
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > ---------------------------------
>> >
>> > Seeya 'round town, Moscow, because . . .
>> > "Moscow Cares" (the most fun you can have with your pants on)
>> > http://www.MoscowCares.com
>> >
>> > Tom Hansen
>> > Moscow, Idaho
>> > "There's room at the top they are telling you still.
>> > But first you must learn to smile as you kill,
>> > If you want to be like the folks on the hill."
>> > - John Lennon
>>
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