[Vision2020] Fw: Re[2]: Are you REALLY a libertarian?

Tue Aug 27 10:44:26 PDT 2013

Hi Roger,

This is the second time that you have referenced J. S. Mill for your
understanding of libertarianism, and you are in good company, because
many libertarians still do.

There are at least three problems with using Mill in this way..
First, Mill does not speak of economics at all in "On Liberty," and
libertarians can derive only one prong of their position from this
work.

Second, Mill is basically a utilitarian, and his argument that
maximizing personal liberty will always maximize utility (the greatest
pleasure for the greatest number) is suspect. I personally don't
believe it succeeds.  An example that I always used in class was that
allowing the Nazis to march in Skokie, Illinois in 1977 caused far
more mental pain around the world than the small pleasure that the
Nazis derived from the liberty of causing pain to the Holocaust
survivors living there.

Gertrude Himmelfarb has argued, quite persuasively I believe, that
Mill wrote "On Liberty" in conjunction with his wife Harriet Taylor,
whose main interest in personal liberty was women's suffrage. (Many
believe that Harriet should have been listed as co-author.)  The
thesis is that Mill stretched the principle of utility beyond its
limits to accommodate his wife's fervent commitment to women's rights.

Third, late in his life Mill recognized that the English working
class, now empowered by the vote, would not look favorably on the
concept of private property. Therefore, England should be
intellectually prepared to entertain arguments for some form of
socialism, which Mill did in an unfinished work just before his death
in 1873.  Mill was confident that the English would not choose Marxist
socialism.  His predictions were correct. Fabian socialism, which
inspired the Labor Party, was a democratic socialism, and Mill's
utilitarianism supports this political philosophy far better than
Mill's forced argument in "On Liberty."

The success of the Northern European welfare states can be seen as the
result of applying the principle of "greatest good for the greatest
number."  The pain of high personal taxes is overwhelmingly trumped by
the pleasure of low debt, low incarceration rates, low teen birth
rates, low abortion rates, low infant mortality rates, better
education, etc., etc.

Still waiting for Paul to clarify where he differs from the Tea Party
or people like Rand Paul.

Yours for personal liberty and Middle Way between economic extremes,

Nick

On 8/26/13, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> In terms of violent video games, my all time favorite is 'Grand Theft Auto:
> Liberty City Stories' followed by 'GTA: San Andreas' followed by 'GTA III'.
> I'm not so much drawn to the violence.  I'm amazed at the capability of the
> graphics engines and the vastness of the virtual world, the clarity and
> detail of all the sites, along with numerous missions, side missions, and
> air/land/water crafts.  The audio is incredible as well with its vast genre
> of radio stations, playlists, disk jockeys, commercials, news reports, and
> of course my favorite which are beautifully done parodies of right wing talk
> radio.
>
> That said, I found 'GTA IV' to be a huge disappointment and I'm crossing my
> fingers that 'GTA V' which is due out in 20 days, 17 hours, and 12 minutes
> is greatly improved.
>
> -Scott
>
> Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2013 21:23:20 -0700
> From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com
> To: lfalen at turbonet.com
> CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Re[2]: Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
> Some further comments on your comments, Roger. And thanks for sharing.
>
> "I do think that government has a right to promote a stable society or
> family values"
>
>
> If you could find in Mill some comment about "family values" in relation to
> government regulation, I'd be interested.
>
> "My grandkids when  they are with their dad, watch  Psycho and other violent
> or twisted movies."
>
>
> You are confusing art with rhetoric. Good art tries to inform, not persuade.
> Psycho is one of the greatest films of all time. It is #1 in the American
> Film Institutes most thrilling films, #18 on AFI's Greatest American Films,
> and #30 on IMDb's best films list (as ranked by viewers). There is little
> evidence that violent art influences violent action. Maybe you know
> differently. And your evidence in rebuttal would be ...
>
>
> "I think that government should promote self reliance. ... Government should
> take care of those that are
> unable to help themselves."
>
> I agree.
>
> "There are a way too many rules and regulation."
>
> As I noted in the previous reply, I agree.
>
> "The free market should
> dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see that every one has
> an equal opportunity."
>
> With the first claim, I disagree. This strikes me as a very philosophical
> stance. Why have faith in the free market? I just don't get it. Thus far,
> the free market has gotten us fast food, pollution, global warming, and
> (recently) bad education. I don't see how we are benefiting, though I'm open
> to arguments otherwise.
>
>
> I should clarify. Actually I am in favor of a GENUINELY free market but we
> don't have that. A genuinely free market would be free of government
> subsidies and benefits of any kind. But we don't have that. Businesses get
> all kinds of government benefits: tax relief etc. So if we could cut that
> crap, that pork, I'd be in favor of a (genuinely) free market. Let them pay
> their taxes (like the rest of us) and go on their own and see if they can
> make it. Let the people decide what they want. Maybe that could work. Who
> knows since we've never tried. If the deal is that businesses have to make
> it in a GENUINELY free market, then government help of any kind -- even in
> the form of tax relief -- should be out. Would you favor that plan? If not,
> you're not really in favor of a free market. If not, then what you favor is
> big business and not a free market.
>
>
> I'm left thinking that I am far more of a libertarian than you or any Idaho
> Republican could ever be.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 5:38 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>
> To: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> Cc: "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>, "Paul Rumelhart"
> <godshatter at yahoo.com>, "Nicholas Gier" <ngier006 at gmail.com>
>
> Date: 08/24/13 17:43
> Subject: Re[2]: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Joe
>
> As Nick pointed out an Anarchist believes inn no government. This in
> impractical as it would result in the bully or the most powerful dominating.
> A Libertarian ( Classical Liberal) would generally adhere to the precepts
> outlined by John Stuart Mill.  You should have the freedom do do as you
> please so long as it does not interfere with some one else. In other words
> your freedom to swing your fist ends at my nose. I do not consider myself a
> pure Libertarian as defined by Nick. While I am in general agreement, I do
> think that government has a right to promote a stable society or family
> values. I do not like all of the violent video games and movies. I think
> that they are harmful to young people and should be restricted to adults
> only. I support " The Parents TV Council"l in their effort to keep violent
> and sexual programing away from kids. My grandkids when  they are with their
> dad, watch  Psycho and other violent or twisted movies. At our house they
> watch "Feature Films for Families".
>
>
>
>
>  I think that government should promote self reliance. Read Clarence
> Thomas's autobiography. Government should take care of those that are unable
> to help themselves. Even the disable are able to do some work. When I was
> with Carnation and Manapo, we had the disabled package our " Small World"
> bird feed line. Those folks wanted to work.
>
>
> There are a way too many rules and regulation. The free market should
> dominate. Any rules and regulation should be to see that every one has an
> equal opportunity. Some rules are necissary to protect the general welfare,
> such as food safety. I support more food inspections and regulations to
> protect the food supply.
>
>
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> To: lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com>
>
> Cc: "Nicholas Gier" <ngier006 at gmail.com>, "Paul Rumelhart"
> <godshatter at yahoo.com>, "Moscow Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
> Date: 08/24/13 14:53
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
> Which would you keep and why?
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2013, at 2:51 PM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> What is it then? Which
>
>
> On Aug 24, 2013, at 1:48 PM, lfalen <lfalen at turbonet.com> wrote:
>
>
>  Nick
> I don't think that any Libertarian wants to get rid of all government
> programs. Libertarian is not synonomus with Anarchist.
> Roger
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
> From: "Nicholas Gier"
>
> To: "Paul Rumelhart"
> Date: 08/24/13 08:29:22
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Do you really want to get rid of all federal programs? You are talking Tea
> Party when you claim to know what the Constitution means, just as
> fundamentalists claim to know what God's will is.
>
>
> Perhaps you have forgotten that for over 200 years the Supreme Court, not
> individuals with their own private interpretations, has determined the
> meaning of the Constitution, and so far, very few federal programs have been
> declared unconstitutional.
>
>
>
> Just recently "activist" conservatives on the Court ruled that corporations
> are persons, something that the founders certainly did not intend. Some much
> for the phony theory of "originalism." The Constitution is obviously a
> "living" document.
>
>
>
> Please clarify your own definition of libertarianism and how it differs from
> the Tea Party folks.
>
>
> Nick
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 10:23 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> In what way does Libertarianism "strip the people of the right to determine
> their own form of government and the society they wish to live in"? You
> still vote the same way, the rules of Congress are the same, etc.
> Libertarians are for reducing the size of government back to what is
> specified in the Constitution, leaving the rest to the states or the
> individual. Is that what you are referring to?
>
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>
> To: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; Paul Rumelhart
> <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
>
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 9:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
>
>
>
>
> My objection to Libertarianism is that it strips the people of the right to
> determine their own form of government and the society they wish to live in.
>  It removes using the government as a means to solve a problem when it may
> at times be the best or least costly solution.
>
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
>
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>
> To: Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
>
> Cc: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 7:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
>
>
>
> My opposition to libertarianism stems from my adherence to social contract
> theory. We agree to uphold the laws of a particular society in exchange for
> security. And vice versa: no security, no adherence to the law.
>
>
>
> Social programs are justified from a purely pragmatic point of view. Thus,
> libertarianism is false.
>
>
> On Aug 22, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I agree with this. Let's keep the brand name clean, so it doesn't get taken
> over like the original Tea Party did.
>
>
> I do see a lot of pushback to Libertarianism by both Democrats and
> Republicans, which makes me think they're on the right track.
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>
> To: Moscow Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:19 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] Are you REALLY a libertarian?
>
>
>
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/08/30/773243/-Top-10-Signs-You-Might-Not-Be-A-Libertarian?detail=facebook#
>
>
>
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