[Vision2020] Immigration Reform: Path to citizenship won't be easy

Thu Aug 22 09:13:45 PDT 2013

In short, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen due to the 14th Amendment.  Being Mexican and living in the United States (legally or illegally) is not a qualification for US citizenship.  Those folks would need to apply if they wanted citizenship.  None of them would be forced against their will to apply.

<If someone kicked me out of my house, should I have to beg to reenter, or can I kick the door in and enter as I please?>

You can beg to reeenter but it will probably be futile.  Kicking in the door and entering as you please may have legal ramifications.  My suggestion is that you follow the normal legal process.  1) Call the police to report any suspected crime of someone being in your house illegally, 2) File a civil lawsuit to resolve any disputes regarding whether or not you have the legal right to occupy the house.

Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2013 07:04:35 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Immigration Reform: Path to citizenship won't be	easy
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; philosopher.joe at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

Why do Mexicans, who are native to these western lands, have to apply for citizenship? I mean, if their ancestors have been living there for hundreds or thousands of years, shouldn't their citizenship be great great great grandfathered in already? If someone kicked me out of my house, should I have to beg to reenter, or can I kick the door in and enter as I please?
Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

                                From:

                            Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>;                            

                                To:

                            Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>;                                                     

                                Cc:

                            viz <vision2020 at moscow.com>;                                                                             

                                Subject:

                            Re: [Vision2020] Immigration Reform: Path to citizenship won't be	easy                            

                                Sent:

                            Wed, Aug 21, 2013 11:14:20 PM                            

                                        Were all things equal, I would agree with you, Scott. I think I've tried to live my life in accordance with the values you suggest and in general I try to go the regular route and not cut corners.

But are all things equal? I'm suggesting a pragmatic policy consideration that is not without its moral problems. But leave ethics out of it; don't base it on what folks should do; try to base it on what they will do, whether it is effective policy. Leave ethics to the priests and philosophers. 

Leaving ethics aside, and viewing things from a purely practical point of view, we should consider some kind of amnesty for existing illegal immigrants. Bringing the law into the matter always incurs a cost, and how could that cost be justified other than in some obscure, philosophical way with which I would likely disagree. 

The law should be lean and mean; only used when necessary as well as justified.

On Wed, Aug 21, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

You're correct Joe. Someone may want citizenship but won't apply (not aware or lacks resources) or maybe doesn't have the avenue to apply (here illegally maybe).

I hang with all sorts if various and sundry characters and I've heard all sorts of excuses for not applying for citizenship from a few. Some of the comments have been 'I'VE LIVED HERE LONG ENOUGH, I DON'T THINK I SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO TAKE A TEST' and 'THE CLOSEST IMMIGRATION OFFICE IS IN SEATTLE AND THAT'S 4 HOURS AWAY' and 'I DON'T WANT TO BE SUBPOENAED TO SIT ON A JURY'.  I don't even know if the last one is accurate. Can you shirk jury duty if you're a non citizen?

Anyway IMO when there is process already in place, you should follow the process. I think Wayne's point is that for those in the United States illegally, they should go back to their home country or else be forcibly removed per the current process (law). I don't agree with position which I'm sure makes me a hypocrite for calling for other laws to be enforced but not deportation laws except under certain instances where enforcing them 'makes sense' to me. Subjective, I know, but that topic is for another discussion.

So the question I'd have is 'do illegals residing in the US presently have a have a path to become legal residents?'  If not, I thin that's the first problem to solve. Give them a path to Green Card. Or if that's too much (and Greed Cards are tantamount to Nirvana), then they should be offered a path to Blue Card which can be continued on the Green Card. 

Does this seem fair enough?

-Scott
On Aug 21, 2013, at 10:19 AM, "Joe Campbell" <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

Scott,
Application rate is not a good measure. There might be reasons -- fear of deportation -- for why illegals won't apply that are independent of not wanting citizenship.

If we did things like we used to do -- when your relatives came and my relatives came -- more illegals would be legals. What's a boat ride to NY compared with what they now suffer?
On Aug 21, 2013, at 9:58 AM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

First of all, there has been on talk I hope of just 'giving illegals citizenship'.  Even Tom specifically wrote that he wants a 'path to citizenship' offered for illegals.  A common path for non-citizens to follow presently is to first obtain a Green Card.

As for your question of 'what supports your claim that illegals don't want citizenship?', the answer is due in part that even legals don't want citizenship. The naturalization rate  of LEGAL immigrants from Mexico who are eligible to become citizens is only 36% which is a rate that is half that of legal immigrants from all other countries combined.

You can read more about 'the path not taken' at:

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2013/02/04/the-path-not-taken/

I am in favor of a path for illegals to first become 'documented' and put on a path toward Green Card and citizenship, but if they choose for any reason to not to file for any such documentation, then that would be their choice alone to remain 'undocumented'.  And if they choose to become 'documented', but to not to follow the path to citizenship, then that would again be their choice.  It's like abortion.  Women should be offered that choice, but not have it forced upon them against their will.

-Scott

Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2013 07:45:14 -0700
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Immigration Reform: Path to citizenship won't be easy
From: philosopher.joe at gmail.com

To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com

Why do you say they don't want it? If they don't want citizenship, then it is a non-issue. Give it too them, and they'll just give it back. What is the harm? My guess is that a lot of illegals would file for citizenship but they are afraid of being arrested if they try. Maybe I'm wrong about that but what supports your claim that illegals don't want citizenship?

On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com> wrote:

The Path to Citizenship doesn't address the root of the problem which is how do you force citizenship on people who don't want it?  It's almost as difficult as trying force democracy on the Iraqis.

http://www.dailynews.com/general-news/20130527/immigration-reform-path-to-citizenship-wont-be-easy

"It's certainly not a bill that we would have written ourselves,'' said 
Laura Vazquez, a legislative analyst at the National Council of La Raza,
 who nevertheless said it "makes significant improvements to our broken 
immigration system. "

"The ultimate goal of the legislation we believe is to get as many 
people to move from undocumented status into a path to citizenship,'' 
Vazquez said. "That has to be met by having a process that is real and 
accessible.''

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