[Vision2020] Fw: Second Amendment Remedy

Scott Dredge scooterd408 at hotmail.com
Sun Sep 9 23:51:06 PDT 2012



I'll make a statement that if they shoot and injure (or kill) anyone they will likely face civil and criminal prosecution.  The trucking company will also likely be sued.  The upside for them may be that they might have saved their own skin - and if that's your point, then point taken.

-Scott

Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:01:01 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw:  Second Amendment Remedy
To: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; rforce2003 at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Company policies are written so yes, you are not allowed to have any weapon or any kind. And, no you cannot have a tire iron, as it would be useless on a 18 wheeler with 8 lug-nuts per wheel that need a high power tool to remove or put on tight enough. It isn't your grandma's station wagon you just jack up and put on a tire, it weighs up to 80,000 lbs and the company isn't going to let anyone without diesel tech training or a master mechanics certification touch their $500,000 piece of equipment with millions in cargo on it. I guess you could use your pen or ruler for your log book as a weapon.
 
But yes, it isn't really a problem as you suggest because law enforcement cannot catch everyone that has a gun yet. But someday they probably will. My problem isn't what they are doing, but the fact that it can be considered illegal and the federal government does nothing to protect the welfare of the middle, not just commercial drivers. 
 
You have made no counter argument based on the reality of traveling workers and I think you are very much stereotyping truck drivers when you make statements that they kill innocent people and don't know when or how to use the appropiate amount of force. 
 
Donovan J. Arnold





From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; rforce2003 at yahoo.com; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 12:40 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Second Amendment Remedy





I don't think it's that black and white Donovan.  The company may have some limited liability but it will be far less than 100%.  The company policy isn't going to specifically be written as 'no weapon of any kind' since a tire iron can be considered a weapon or it can be used for its intended purpose of loosening / tightening lug nuts.  It seems like you're attempting to solve a non-existent problem.  Companies that are losing cargo / money / drivers in high crime areas would likely cease to do any kind of business in those areas if local law enforcement was not stepping up to better police those blighted areas.  And Big Brother's reach isn't long enough yet to prevent a truck driver from packing heat if he / she so chooses, so they need to weigh to the consequences of their actions and decide for themselves if the risks / punishment for things going wrong is worth the self protection their
 seeking.  And when tragedy strikes and they're being prosecuted for unnecessary use of deadly force, they can claim self defense in exercising their 2nd amendment right.  Let me know how that all works out.-Scott 


Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 04:46:11 -0700From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.comSubject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Second Amendment RemedyTo: scooterd408 at hotmail.com; rforce2003 at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com 

Scott,
 
It might make sense to you but only because you are not a truck driver being mugged, robbed, assaulted or having someone outside your truck trying to get in. I think that if a company is going to put its employees in dangerous places they either need to be 100% liable for their safety, or allow them the chance of self protection. Putting them directly in harms way and then saying, "If you have any weapon of any kind you will be terminated" is bogus and negligent of employees safety and well-being, and knowingly doing it but not caring about their driver. Some truck drivers can be required to wait days and days in extremely dangerous areas waiting for another load to take.
 
 
A commercial driver keeping a weapon in a locked box in his personal belongings in his sleeper cab where he lives is in no way damaging to a trucking company. Would you stop buying products from a trucking company because some people that work for it might own a gun? Do you know of any other companies that would also be irreparably damaged by some employees owning a weapon for self defense? In simply terms, the trucking companies are more concerned about a lawsuit against them then the life of their driver. 
 
Truck drivers are also not working all the time. They are only allowed to work 14 hours a day and less than 70 hrs a week. The rest of the time they off the clock and on their own where ever their last load drop was. And if you think a truck driver is free to drive anywhere they want, you are wrong, where you go and where get gas is 100% under company control too. 
 
Donovan J. Arnold





From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; rforce2003 at yahoo.com; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2012 1:17 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Second Amendment Remedy





Well come on Donovan, be realistic.  I have a constitutional right of free speech that protects me from the government censoring me, but it doesn't protect me from being disciplined or even fired from my job at a private employer for saying things that are damaging to my company's business.  A truck driver might think he / she has a constitutional right to carry a gun despite the policy of his company, but he / she probably does not have any legal protections from being terminated for violating a company policy of 'no guns allowed while on the job'.  I'm not a lawyer, but this seems pretty straight forward to me. -Scott 


Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 23:49:51 -0700 From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com To: rforce2003 at yahoo.com; vision2020 at moscow.com Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Second Amendment Remedy 

I know this, Ron. But try driving a truck across country without violating a gun law. And trucking companies should not be allowed to deny someone their constitutional rights. The problem is, the Federal Government will not write a federal law that prevents state and local government from doing this. 
 
Donovan J. Arnold





From: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2012 7:50 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Second Amendment Remedy






I should have done this to begin with: check the statement that truck drivers can't carry guns. Some quick Googling reveals there is no Federal law or regulation that prohibits it. There may be local or state laws one could run afoul of, but the real reason drivers can't go armed is that private companies won't allow it. They don't want to assume the liability and their insurance companies won't cover it.



From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 
To: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>; 'Moscow Vision2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com>; 
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy 
Sent: Thu, Sep 6, 2012 11:53:01 AM 






Saundra,
 
Your claim then is that a commercial driver in his own home should not be allowed to defend himself from people that beat him or shoot him and take his, wallet, personal property or truck and only means of survival, and that he doesn't have the same constitutional rights as you do simply because he is a truck driver? Truck drivers have no interest in defending company cargo, they have an interest in protecting themselves. 
 
Truck drivers are not permanently attached to the truck, they get out, walk around go to the store, movies, post office and other errands, they have no choice in which places they must go and are just as easily harmed as anyone else walking around downtown LA getting a pack of smokes at the corner of Crack Alley and Heroin St. 
 
Donovan J. Arnold
 




From: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
To: 'Donovan Arnold' <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 'Moscow Vision2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy






Sorry, Donovan, I pretty vehemently disagree that it’s appropriate to use deadly force to defend mere property.  I also disagree with the idea that it’s OK to take a gun to a fist fight.  That misguided idea is what’s killing our youth.
 
 
Saundra
 


From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 9:56 PM
To: Wayne Price; Ron Force
Cc: Moscow Vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy
 


It isn't a matter of if someone is or isn't better off armed or not. It is a matter of human rights. Do you, and do all humans have the right to defend themselves from loss of life, limb and property and of those in their guardianship? I think so. 

 

Donovan J. Arnold

 



From: Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>
To: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy
 



Ron,

 
And do you want to bet that Reginald Denny wished he was armed or was he better off unarmed? 

 

>From TIME: 

 

"Taking a shortcut off the Santa Monica Freeway down Normandie Avenue was nothing out of the ordinary for 33-year-old Reginald Denny. In the late afternoon of April 29, 1992, he had simply loaded up his 18-wheeler and headed down the road, driving for his employer Transit Mixed Concrete. Little did he know that he would drive smack into the middle of an angry mob looking for vengeance. 

As his rig crossed Florence, a group of rioters enraged over the Rodney King verdict rushed toward him, pulled him out of the cab and beat him to within an inch of his life. The attack ended when Damian Monroe Williams took a cinderblock and bashed Denny's skull, fracturing it in 91 places and causing severe brain damage."
 

 

 

Wayne

 

 

 

 

 


On Sep 5, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Ron Force wrote:






Hmmmm, lets see... whats more likely to get you killed? Driving into a high crime area unarmed, or pulling out your six-shooter and playing Marshall Dillon with the bad guys. "Yes sir, this here cargo's so valuable, I'd give up my life for it." 

 

Stuff can be replaced (and it's probably insured). Lives can't.

 

Ron Force
Moscow Idaho USA



From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>; Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy
 




Easy access to guns and limited access to mental health services don't mix. 

 

One complaint about gun laws right now is that commercial truck drivers, who live in their trucks, are banned from legally carrying any weapons for self defense. Many are also required for their job to drive into dangerous high crime areas with valuable cargo. 

 

Donovan J. Arnold

 



From: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>
To: Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy
 




>From Knute Berger:

 

...Unfortunately, many pro-gun legislators in Oly are also pushing more and more to cut government funding. The result is an increasingly armed populace and fewer resources to identify and treat people who are mentally ill and potentially violent. Ian Stawicki, who shot down his fellow Café Racer regulars and the mom at Town Hall, was known to be mentally unbalanced by his family and friends, and he had a domestic violence record. Yet he was well armed and untreated.

A democracy needs an educated citizenry. An uninformed society, James Madison said, leads to “farce or a tragedy.” But a heavily armed democracy must also have a commitment to sanity and humanity. It does little good to say the mentally ill can’t own firearms if you can’t identify who they are, if you can’t disarm them and if you don’t have the resources to treat them.

Failing to follow through with sane policy also contributes to tragedy, as we’re learning the hard way. 

 

http://crosscut.com/2012/09/05/mossback/110281/seattle-shooting-ian-stawicki-gun-control/ 

 

Ron Force
Moscow Idaho USA


 

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              http://www.fsr.net/
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