[Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

Sat Sep 8 04:17:22 PDT 2012

Thanks Saundra,
You make extremely valid points, and I see your reasoning. I apologize for not being clearer in my writings. Sometime it is difficult I think to communicate over email, especially a server list like this one that is limited.

The problem I have had and see many drivers having is how they can functionally defend themselves within the state law and with employers. Many truck drivers I knew didn't care about the state regulations regarding personal firearms, they just carried them anyway or lead others to believe they did. But here is the problem;

You are suppose to have the "right to bear arms" to defend yourself. Most trucking companies ban drivers from doing this. If it is a constitutional right to carry a firearm, how can a company require this as a condition? They cannot ban any other constitutional rights of a truck driver, for example the right to freedom of religion, so why this basic right to self preservation? 

The second problem is the logistics for a commercial truck driver who travels many states to register in each and every state they travel through which is state law in most states. So it is not feasible for a truck driver to do this. They use to have the same problem with driver's licenses. Many truck drivers would have a separate license in every state, and when they got a license suspended for driving too many hours or speeding, or accidents, they just used another one. Now federal law only requires a person to have one state license which is good in every state and if you get your license taken in one state you cannot get another one in another state. 

I think it is only fair that since commercial drivers live in their trucks and travel state to state that they be under one law regarding carrying firearms, and that a company not be permitted to deny a driver their constitutional right to self preservation. 

I am ignorant as to what exactly the federal law is regarding interstate travel of weapons, but I do know that different states have different laws and it is not possible to comply with all of them. I don't think they are given special privileges because they have to travel for a living. Military personal are individuals that I believe also only follow one federal law regarding state residency and weapons, it is a part of their jobs. 

As to the second part of your question, I do agree that shooting someone for stealing your car and TV is excessive force and unwarranted morally. However, there are extreme cases where you may have to, like if you owned a store that was robbed every month, or if you are farmer that has his livestock stolen or killed to the point of extreme financial hardship, or someone kept breaking into your house. Or if you aren't sure of the intentions of the aggressor, are they going to steal and leave you alone, or try and rape you and steal the jewelry. If it were me, and someone broke into my house, even if I had a gun, I would try and slip away and get out of the house, not engage them in a gun battle. However, if others were in the house, I would shoot them in the head before they knew I was there, because I would have no idea of their intentions being to harm people or just steal my big screen. 

For a truck driver it can be scary when you are sleeping in your sleeper and someone comes up and starts banging on the side of it really loud. You don't know who it is or what they want. It could be someone to rob you personally, or try to hurt you and get your cargo, or if they simply want you to move the truck somewhere else, turn off the engine, or to sell you something. And if you are unarmed, you are very vulnerable because is their nothing the dispatch can do for you over the CB or cell but call the cops and hope they can find you in time. 

Hope that clarifies things for you. However, knowing me, it probably made things even more confusing, :P. But like I said before, my statements are only cryptic for those born and raised on planet Earth. And considering how many planets there are, that ain't bad. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
To: 'Donovan Arnold' <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 'Moscow Vision2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Saturday, September 8, 2012 2:24 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

Donovan,

I think you misunderstand my position, and I’m very confused about yours.

First, I couldn’t find any federal gun law that prohibits commercial truck drivers from carrying personal firearms.  Tom asked you to provide a citation, but I didn’t see that you responded – maybe I missed it?  In any case, I found several sites that indicated that commercial truck drivers can carry personal firearms on the road.  Here’s one of many examples:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/FAQ.pdf

“# 14 Question: Can a commercial truck driver carry a firearm in his/her rig? 
Answer: There is no federal law concerning commercial truck drivers and firearms. If you have the proper Permits/License and can legally carry in the state you are driving in or that state allows the carrying of firearms without a permit you are legal. Click Here to read letter from Office of Hazardous Materials Standards that firearms do not fall under hazardous materials in commercial vehicles. 
A company can have a Rule that states you cannot carry in their vehicles. That is just a company rule and all they can do if you do carry and are caught by them is fire you. You are not breaking a law just a company rule. I have talked to many truck drivers about this and I have not heard of one trucking company that allows their drivers to carry a firearm while working.”

Here’s another:
http://driversalike.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/truckers-can-carry-a-gun/
And so forth – I can post a whole bunch of links about what I found, but it would be much easier for you to provide citation for your claim, “One complaint about gun laws right now is that commercial truck drivers, who live in their trucks, are banned from legally carrying any weapons for self defense.”

Based on the reading I did, that belief seems to be an urban legend.  Based on our mutual misunderstanding/confusion of each other’s positions, I think it might be helpful if we could start the conversation from a point where we agree on a starting fact.  You made a claim that there’s a problem with existing gun laws because commercial truck drivers “are banned from legally carrying any weapons for self-defense.”  That was confusing to me because I have known more than a few private haul commercial truck drivers who own their own rigs, and most (perhaps all) of them carried personal firearms OTR in compliance with state law with no absolutely no problem.

Your claim was also confusing to me because to affect all commercial truck drivers, it would have to be some kind of federal law and I wasn’t aware of any such law, so I went looking to see what I’d missed.  Based on the reading I did, it seems like trucking companies, not gun laws, are the issue.

Are you arguing that truck drivers should be special and not be bound by the laws of the land they are in (i.e., that they should be exempt from state permits/licenses/regulations and requirements)?  If so, what’s the basis for wanting special treatment for truck drivers over other employees that travel for work yet must comply with state gun laws?

I’m further confused because you – not me – brought up protecting property.  You wrote:
“Do you, and do all humans have the right to defend themselves from loss of life, limb and property and of those in their guardianship?”

I maintain that, generally speaking, deadly force isn’t appropriate to protect mere property, to which you responded, “Truck drivers have no interest in defending company cargo, they have an interest in protecting themselves.”

Well, then why did you introduce “property” into your argument (“Do you, and do all humans have the right to defend themselves from loss of life, limb and property and of those in their guardianship?”)?

Looking Forward to Clarification & Further Discussion,
Saundra

From:Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 4:53 AM
To: Saundra Lund; 'Moscow Vision2020'
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

Saundra,

Your claim then is that a commercial driver in his own home should not be allowed to defend himself from people that beat him or shoot him and take his, wallet, personal property or truck and only means of survival, and that he doesn't have the same constitutional rights as you do simply because he is a truck driver? Truck drivers have no interest in defending company cargo, they have an interest in protecting themselves.

Truck drivers are not permanently attached to the truck, they get out, walk around go to the store, movies, post office and other errands, they have no choice in which places they must go and are just as easily harmed as anyone else walking around downtown LA getting a pack of smokes at the corner of Crack Alley and Heroin St. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From:Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
To: 'Donovan Arnold' <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; 'Moscow Vision2020' <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:24 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

Sorry, Donovan, I pretty vehemently disagree that it’s appropriate to use deadly force to defend mere property.  I also disagree with the idea that it’s OK to take a gun to a fist fight.  That misguided idea is what’s killing our youth.

Saundra

From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2012 9:56 PM
To: Wayne Price; Ron Force
Cc: Moscow Vision2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

It isn't a matter of if someone is or isn't better off armed or not. It is a matter of human rights. Do you, and do all humans have the right to defend themselves from loss of life, limb and property and of those in their guardianship? I think so. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From:Wayne Price <bear at moscow.com>
To: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

Ron,

And do you want to bet that Reginald Denny wished he was armed or was he better off unarmed? 

From TIME: 

"Taking a shortcut off the Santa Monica Freeway down NormandieAvenue was nothing out of the ordinary for 33-year-old Reginald Denny. In the late afternoon of April 29, 1992, he had simply loaded up his 18-wheeler and headed down the road, driving for his employer Transit Mixed Concrete. Little did he know that he would drive smack into the middle of an angry mob looking for vengeance. 
As his rig crossed Florence, a group of rioters enraged over the Rodney King verdict rushed toward him, pulled him out of the cab and beat him to within an inch of his life. The attack ended when Damian Monroe Williams took a cinderblock and bashed Denny's skull, fracturing it in 91 places and causing severe brain damage."

Wayne

On Sep 5, 2012, at 6:06 PM, Ron Force wrote:

Hmmmm, lets see... whats more likely to get you killed? Driving into a high crime area unarmed, or pulling out your six-shooter and playing Marshall Dillon with the bad guys. "Yes sir, this here cargo's so valuable, I'd give up my life for it." 

Stuff can be replaced (and it's probably insured). Lives can't.

Ron Force
Moscow Idaho USA
From:Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>; Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

Easy access to guns and limited access to mental health services don't mix. 

One complaint about gun laws right now is that commercial truck drivers, who live in their trucks, are banned from legally carrying any weapons for self defense. Many are also required for their job to drive into dangerous high crime areas with valuable cargo. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From:Ron Force <rforce2003 at yahoo.com>
To: Moscow Vision2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 11:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Second Amendment Remedy

From Knute Berger:

...Unfortunately, many pro-gun legislators in Oly are also pushing more and more to cut government funding. The result is an increasingly armed populace and fewer resources to identify and treat people who are mentally ill and potentially violent. Ian Stawicki, who shot down his fellow Café Racer regulars and the mom at Town Hall, was known to be mentally unbalanced by his family and friends, and he had a domestic violence record. Yet he was well armed and untreated.

A democracy needs an educated citizenry. An uninformed society, James Madison said, leads to “farce or a tragedy.” But a heavily armed democracy must also have a commitment to sanity and humanity. It does little good to say the mentally ill can’t own firearms if you can’t identify who they are, if you can’t disarm them and if you don’t have the resources to treat them.

Failing to follow through with sane policy also contributes to tragedy, as we’re learning the hard way. 

http://crosscut.com/2012/09/05/mossback/110281/seattle-shooting-ian-stawicki-gun-control/ 

Ron Force
Moscow Idaho USA

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