[Vision2020] Vandal sports

Donovan Arnold donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Fri May 4 16:36:25 PDT 2012


Carl,
 
I think a true fan of the Vandals would support the team regardless of the division or the opponent. People that support UI support the decisions that are for the best interests of the University and student success. 
 
UI is not a big athletics college, it is the Flagship of the academics for the state of Idaho, that is why people in Moscow don't  care which division. They will support UI unconditionally.
 
 
Donovan Arnold

From: Carl Westberg <idahovandal1 at live.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com 
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2012 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports


It's interesting comparing the reactions to the possible options facing Vandal athletics from the posters on Vandal Venue and those who have probably never heard of the site.  The large majority of these people on the forum are alumni who live away from Moscow.  Many live in the Treasure Valley, and most of that group travel to Moscow for virtually every home game.  They are hard core fans, and the angst currently on the board is rather abundant.  This morning, in reaction to word that President Nellis has "not ruled out" a return to the Big Sky, I'm reading responses like "if this happens, I'll never set foot on campus again", "my son has been planning on attending the U of I in the fall, but if this happens, we'll seriously reevaluate that decision", "turn off the lights, the U of I is toast", the return to 1-AA will put the institution into a death spiral, and more.  But in Moscow, the town that is home to the school, interest in the whole affair
 is seemingly nonexistent. "WAC, Sun Belt, independent, Big Sky, who cares?", seems to be the prevalent attitude here. I have no idea what, if anything, that means.  Maybe the super fans need to take a deep breath?  


Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 06:05:13 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: skialaska0 at gmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports


Chris,
 
I don't think athletes are inferior to anyone else, in academic performance or in anything else. But they do cost UI more money than other scholarship students because they have to be provided with expensive buildings, equipment, and salaries for coaches and trainers for the athletes.
 
The biggest contributor to UI is not football, it is the Idaho taxpayer, then the federal taxpayer, the private companies paying for research and use of UI land, and then the students. Athletics generate a loss for the UI. The Kibbie Dome and the golf course alone both cost millions and millions of dollars to maintain every year only. If you have numbers otherwise, please provide. But when I attended UI its athletic department netted millions in the negative. 
 
We needed a marching band with Big Sky, and we would still need one. Lionel Hampton will not change with less money spent on athletics. In fact, it might be a better idea to shift money to the musical department from athletics as music students usually outperform all other students in academics achievement. And the Lionel Hampton Festival attracts a great deal of national and regional participation. 
 
I believe that if students saved millions on athletics and put it into scholarships we could easily have more students, and more minority students because the cost of student fees would be significantly less and more minority students could afford college. 
 
Donovan Arnold

From: Love America <skialaska0 at gmail.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> 
Cc: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>; vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports


Donovan,
One of the misperceptions you have about student athletes is that they somehow or another are inferior to non-athletes.  This might be true at BSU (I had to take that shot), but if you look at overall GPA's and graduation rates, those on athletic scholarships at Idaho outperform the overall student body by a substantial margin.  Once those on athletic scholarships graduate they tend to land better jobs and be better donors back to the UI.  Football is by far the biggest generator of revenue for the UI and, as it has been often quoted, it is impossible to convince 13,000 people (UI) or 116,000 people (Michigan) on a Saturday to spend 4 hours of their lives watching a academic debate/event of any kind.   I personally have flown from Fairbanks to Moscow to watch 4 football games while my son (marching band) has been at the U of I.  My son attends the UI because of the Lionel Hampton School of Music.  Marching band, pep band other musical
 opportunities that exist there in large part because of football; without football marching band would not exist (and in my personal case I would bleed out a lot less money because he would  probably attend school here in Alaska).   As for your argument that shrinking, or even eliminating athletics would lead to greater enrollment of minorities, I would firmly state that you are wrong.   We all like to paint the UI as the Northwest's version of Harvard, but let’s get real for a moment and admit that the UI only still exists because of it land-grant status, and now large alumni base that fights for our college, the Boise controlled legislature would have long ago moved the campus to Boise; Albion State Normal School is proof that without sports, a large alumni base, and land grant status colleges die in Idaho.
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 6:53 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

I don't think it does, Sunil. I just think football is the biggest generator of revenue. UI administrators might also point to donations and sales of UI products as revenues from football. Athletic scholarships help as well, but even a full scholarship covers only 20% of a student's tab, as the State of Idaho and federal government the 80%. 
> 
>Donovan Arnold 
>
>
>From: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>To: vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
>Sent: Thursday, May 3, 2012 8:12 AM 
>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports
>
>
>Does UI football really generate revenue? Does revenue exceed the money the school/state puts into it? 
>
>Sunil
>
>
>From: areaman at moscow.com
>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 05:58:37 -0700
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports
>
>
>Donovan, 
> 
>You may have missed it in Chris’ first sentence:
> 
>“football revenue”
> 
>DC
> 
>From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 2:36 AM
>To: Love America
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports
>
>Chris,
> 
>I am not sure why diversity and opportunities would suffer at UI by returning to the Big Sky, nor did your response state why. I am 100% for Title IX, always have been. 
> 
>My understanding, however, whenever I looked into the situation while at UI, was that UI athletics always cost the UI more in revenues than it ever brought in and football only helped to offset those huge expenses. If this is so, I would surmise the shrinking of UI athletics would reduce costs to the UI overall and allow more minority students an opportunity to attend UI than athletics. Further, it would be minority students attending college for their academic achievements and talents rather than their ability to throw, catch, hit, or kick a ball. Many of those students would then be more likely to go on as graduate students which generate additional revenues for the UI assisting professors with their research. 
> 
>So I see reducing athletics and returning to Big Sky as an opportunity to win and reduce costs, while at the same time promoting diversity and academic opportunities. 
> 
>Donovan J. Arnold
> 
>From:Love America <skialaska0 at gmail.com>
>To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com 
>Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com 
>Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 7:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports
> 
>Donovan,
>If Idaho were to go back to the Big Sky, UI would have to cut women's programs plain and simple.  Whether you like it or not, football revenue and Title IX compliance are why women's programs are doing so well at UI.  I suspect soccer would go first, followed by women's golf.  Men's and women's swimming would be cut next and probably some track scholarships are lost.  Heck, I  wish the Vandals have had better success at WAC football, but at least the pain on the gridiron (with a couple of great years in the midst) has allowed hundreds of athletes to attend the UI who would not have had a chance if the UI was still in the Big Sky.  Those scholarships have helped with diversity, have added to the richness of the university, and have introduced 100's of fine people to Moscow that would have not been there.   I love winning like anyone else, but I know that in the end having these opportunities for these fine students outweigh the win/loss
 record of any football team.
>Thanks
>Chris
>On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>Leaving the Big Sky was a big mistake, and we need to put money into women's programs. Lady Vandals KICK ASS! Have always been a league above the rest. They were 3rd in the nation in Rodeo when I was there. Not many know that. 
> 
>Donovan J. Arnold
> 
>From:Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
>To: Carl Westberg <idahovandal1 at live.com> 
>Cc: "<vision2020 at moscow.com>" <vision2020 at moscow.com> 
>Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2012 12:35 PM 
>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Vandal sports
>
>As much of a die-hard Vandal as I am and as much of what remaining in Division 1A may mean to the UI Athletic Program, the boys of Bozo State, coupled with the loss of UI's "Flagship" moniker, have taught me one valuable lesson . . .
>
>It simply is NOT that important!
>
>Boise State is a prime example of what can happen if your priorities are messed up.  Boise State has been a four-year college since the 60s.  Although their football program has become a national Division 1A contender, their academic program remains at tier 3 along with a majority of northwest community colleges . . . not one PhD program and very few masters programs, while the University of Idaho has evolved into a nationally competitive tier 1 source of higher education and possesses a wide variety of many graduate programs.
>
>Seeya round town, Moscow.
>
>Tom Hansen
>Moscow, Idaho 
>(UI '96, Information Systems)
>
>"If not us, who?
>If not now, when?"
>
>- Unknown
>
>
>
>On May 2, 2012, at 11:08, Carl Westberg <idahovandal1 at live.com> wrote:
>
>> I've brought this subject up before, but recent conference shuffling events really seem to have put U of Idaho athletics in a very hard place.  No Division 1 conference seems to want the Vandals.  I just saw a Facebook poll asking which of three options respondents would prefer given the circumstances.  1.  Try playing as a D-1 independent, which would probably mean about three home games a year while hoping for an eventual conference invitation.  2.  Play, again, in the Sun Belt (teams in Louisiana, Tennessee...) to stay D-1.  If the Sun Belt wanted Idaho.  3.  Swallow pride and return to 1-AA and the Big Sky.  So far in the Facebook poll, the Big Sky leads comfortably.  Any thoughts?  Or is it even a concern outside of the hard core fans?
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