[Vision2020] "We are the answer"
Paul Rumelhart
godshatter at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 31 19:32:09 PDT 2012
Hi Nick,
On 03/31/2012 06:30 PM, Gier, Nicholas wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the responses. I'll address a few points and then I'm done.
>
> In my book on evangelical Christianity, I went to great pains to
> distinguish between those theologians whom I learned to respect and
> those that I came to disrespect. My focus was always on
> persons/leaders and not the tens of thousands of people in their
> congregations or denominations.
>
> The focus of my criticism has always been on Wilson's inner circle and
> not church members or NSA students. I assume that most of them do not
> have the vices their leaders have.
>
> One clarification: I was not inviting NSA faculty and students to
> "debates," but a regional professional conference where faculty
> present papers in a respectful way and where students are also given a
> chance to interact and present their views as well. I have no desire
> to debate Wilson because I have no respect for him nor could I trust him.
>
My apologies, I couldn't remember the specifics. I applaud you for
inviting the NSA students and faculty to this regional professional
conference.
>
> You admit that Ron Paul is a "crazy guy," and yet you will vote for
> him? Now that's irrational.
>
Am I coming across as being irrational to you? If I was voting for him
because he is a crazy guy, that would indeed be irrational. My voting
for Ron Paul for the reasons I listed is an indication that I've come to
understand that I'm not going to get everything I want this election
cycle, and I doubt very many others will, either. So I've decided to
focus on what I think is most important and the only guy who even has
that on his radar is Ron Paul.
Paul
>
> Thanks for the dialogue,
>
> Nick
>
> > A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
> > they shall never sit in.
> >
> > -Greek proverb
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Thanks for the apology. I don't know if you wanted include in this
> > reply. As per usual, I forgot to press "Reply All" when I sent me
> > post below.
> >
> > Apology accepted. Now what a response to what I said?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > > Hi Paul,
> > >
> > > Thanks for referring to me--at least indirectly--by my first name. It
> > > makes me feel like a real person in this debate. Thanks for the
> > > third-person respect.
> > >
> > > You say that what set you off was my signing myself as "Proud
> > > Intolerista. It's not intolerant to dislike intellectual dishonesty,
> > > ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners." I don't tolerate
> > > intellectual dishonesty among my colleagues and students and I judge
> > > it harshly. My former student Doug Wilson is no different. Am I to
> > > assume that you don't dislike these vices? I hope not.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you did not read my long post about my sincere engagement with
> > > NSA faculty and students, but let me just add that Wilson and I had
> > > friendly relations until from 1973 to 1993 when he double-crossed me
> > > on an abortion debate, but I remained cordial and respectful
> > > thereafter. The slavery debate and his reactions to it changed
> > > everything for me and I now have no respect for him at all. Of course
> > > he is free to say what he wants, but I will continue to condemn him as
> > > long as I have breath.
> > >
> > > In your first post on this issue you remarked that you found my
> > > actions odd for a rational person. Similarly, I find your support for
> > > Ron Paul irrational. With support from a GOP Congress he could really
> > > destroy our economy.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the dialogue (especially now that I personally recognized),
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas F. Gier, Professor Emeritus
> > > Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
> > > "The Palouse Pundit" on Radio Free Moscow, 92.5 FM
> > > President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFT/AFL-CIO
> > > www.idaho-aft.org/ift.htm
> > > 208-882-9212, 410 Samaritan Lane, Moscow, ID 83843
> > >
> > > "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed immaturity.
> > > Immaturity is the inability to use one's understanding without
> > > guidance from another. This immaturity is self- imposed when its cause
> > > lies not in lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage
> > > to use it without guidance from another. Sapere Aude! 'Have courage to
> > > use your own understand-ing!---that is the motto of enlightenment.
> > >
> > > --Immanuel Kant
> > >
> > > A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
> > > they shall never sit in.
> > >
> > > -Greek proverb
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Paul Rumelhart
> > > Sent: Sat 3/31/2012 11:13 AM
> > > To: Sunil Ramalingam
> > > Cc: vision 2020
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > >
> > >
> > > I might even join in a peaceful protest of a KKK parade, in an
> effort to
> > > promote the idea of equality. I would likely try to calm people
> down if
> > > they were angered by the KKK members, and if the protest turned into
> > > anything but peaceful, I would leave it.
> > >
> > > In answer to your question, of course we have the right to judge
> > > people's views and oppose them if we don't like them. That's what I'm
> > > doing here. My initial post was an effort to show the "Intoleristas"
> > > that they were in fact intolerant. It wasn't an effort to have them
> > > shut down or in any way silenced. The statement that started this was
> > > in one of Nick's posts ("It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual
> > > dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners.") I stated
> > > that what I've seen from the Intoleristas certainly looks like
> > > intolerance to me. Most of the responses have either been attempts to
> > > show me that Doug Wilson is so bad that being intolerant of him is our
> > > civic duty, or a shocked reaction to the fact that I really don't care
> > > what nonsense others believe. Oh, and a few attempts to tie my
> lack of
> > > caring about other's personal beliefs with either character flaws, my
> > > race, gender, and economic status, or support for murder, racial
> > > violence, or the Nazi party.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 03/31/2012 10:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> > > > Paul,
> > > >
> > > > If the Klan wants to hold a parade, I defend their right to do so. I
> > > > won't try to prevent them from having their parade.
> > > >
> > > > But I will be there to protest them and their opinions, and will
> > > > support the right of others to do the same.
> > > >
> > > > People have the right to any view they want, as far as I'm
> concerned,
> > > > and I think we agree here. What they don't have is the right to have
> > > > us all say, 'That's just dandy.' We have the right to judge their
> > > > views, and oppose them if we think they're wrong. I get the feeling
> > > > you don't think we have that right. Am I correct about that?
> > > >
> > > > Sunil
> > > >
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700
> > > > From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> > > > To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > > >
> > > > On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Rumelhart writes:
> > > >
> > > > "If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed here in
> > > > Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > > others on this list. If Muslim women in Moscow were being
> > > > harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more
> tolerant of
> > > > each other."
> > > >
> > > > Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same
> amount of
> > > > tenacity to the following:
> > > >
> > > > "If KKK members wearing hoods were being harassed here in
> Moscow,
> > > > I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> others on
> > > > this list. If Aryan Nations members and other white
> supremacists
> > > > in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting that we
> should all
> > > > be more tolerant of each other."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, actually I would. If one group is harassing another group
> merely
> > > > because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be calling for more
> > > > tolerance. I'm not saying that would be my reaction if KKK members
> > > > were physically harassing non-whites on the streets, but it would be
> > > > my reaction if someone just simply declared that they supported the
> > > > KKK and they were getting harassed for it.
> > > >
> > > > It's really not that difficult of a concept. It's not my purpose in
> > > > life to force everyone to think my way. Individualism and the
> > > > sanctity of the mind are important concepts to me. I'm only
> > > > interested in how we all interact in the physical plane.
> > > >
> > > > Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control device
> that
> > > > could be used on people to (among other things) change their core
> > > > beliefs, would you recommend we use it on KKK members?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2. Rumelhart also writes:
> > > >
> > > > "But if one particular faith is being singled out because of
> their
> > > > beliefs and some bad blood between list members, I'm effectively
> > > > shunned if I suggest that we be more tolerant of them."
> > > >
> > > > So now its all about you, Rumelhart. Who would have guessed?
> > > > Poor, poor Rumelhart.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that much
> about
> > > > it. I'm just pointing out that a mere request for tolerance
> can't be
> > > > tolerated on this list. I don't know about you, but I find that
> > ironic.
> > > >
> > > > Paul (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > w.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24 PM, keely emerinemix
> > > > <kjajmix1 at msn.com <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of contention" that the
> > > > Christ Church people "simply think that the historical facts
> > > > of slavery differ from what's normally understood by
> > > > historians" -- two of whose criticism of that view
> caused our
> > > > thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their
> censure by
> > > > the Governor and the UI President.
> > > >
> > > > Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is in his
> > > > extension of the freedom of others to interfere with his
> > > > mission . . .
> > > >
> > > > Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and those
> > > > words promote ideas that are dangerous to civil, stable
> > > > society as you or I know it, and sound the death knell to
> > > > anything resembling a flourishing, just and righteous -- or
> > > > Christian -- society beyond that. His proud claim to be a
> > > > "paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with
> > > > Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his followers
> that
> > > > Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his insistence that such
> > > > slavery was Biblical -- all of this hints, minimally, at
> > > > something less than mere errors of historical understanding.
> > > > I'm a Bible student, not a scholar, but I can assure you
> that
> > > > Antebellum slavery was in no way similar to Roman or earlier
> > > > Hebraic slaveholding, and it was not at any point
> "Biblically
> > > > defensible." Given that he makes his living pulling the
> > > > hermeneutical and political wool over other Christians'
> eyes,
> > > > it damned well matters.
> > > >
> > > > It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of history. I'm
> > > > probably not the person to go to on the finer details of the
> > > > Pelopennesian Wars, for example, but my errors would be
> > > > inconsequential and subject to the derision they deserve
> if I
> > > > choose to spout off on that of which I know nothing,
> although
> > > > if I "see differently" in the service of a dangerous agenda,
> > > > much less call that agenda "Christian," I deserve every
> bit of
> > > > condemnation I incur. I won't call you "evil" for it, but I
> > > > struggle with how to tell you how little I care that you and
> > > > others consider me "intolerant" for condemning Wilson
> and his
> > > > lackeys (a term I used in speaking to him by phone three
> weeks
> > > > ago, just in case you think I feel like it's OK to just
> scurry
> > > > around Vision 2020 rather than engage courageously with him
> > > > personally. Been there, done that, will do it again any
> time
> > > > he's up to it).
> > > >
> > > > I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the announcer
> > > > intones that Columbus came over on the Mayflower. Such
> > > > ignorance is funny in reel life, sad in real life. But I
> > > > would urge you to really consider if all "different
> thinking"
> > > > on historical, social, political, and religious matters is
> > > > benign and worthy of defense.
> > > >
> > > > In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of the
> worst
> > > > type -- that which invokes God. Its spread won't be
> because I
> > > > and a few others stayed silent in its metastasizing.
> > > >
> > > > Keely
> > > > www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
> > > > <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700
> > > > From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > > <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If members of Christ Church were going around enslaving
> > > > people, you might have a point. As it is, they simply think
> > > > that the historical facts of slavery differ from what's
> > > > normally understood by historians. I'm not comfortable
> > > > ostracizing a group merely because of what they think about
> > > > something. That seems to be the main point of contention,
> > here.
> > > >
> > > > There is a huge difference between murdering a person based
> > > > solely on their race or culture, and thinking, well,
> whatever
> > > > it is that the Christ Churchers think exactly about
> slavery in
> > > > the Old South. Or, more simply, between murdering
> anyone for
> > > > any reason and thinking thoughts others find offensive.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Paul,
> > > > You are right that everyone needs to work on caring and
> > > > accepting their neighbors for the people that they are.
> > > > However, it should concern you that some people do not
> > > > acknowledge the human atrocities that occurred with the
> > > > slavery of a race not that long ago. A race that even
> > > > today feels and sufferers the consequences of those
> > > > events. It is in effect racist to not acknowledge the
> > > > human suffering and violations that occurred to a
> race of
> > > > people. If we can ignore or deceive others into ignoring
> > > > one of the greatest human rights violations in the
> United
> > > > States, than we can easily ignore all other human rights
> > > > violations. Which, in effect, puts all humans, including
> > > > yourself and everyone you care about at risk. Where one
> > > > person's rights are ignored and violated, everyone
> > > > else can be violated as well. That should concern
> you. It
> > > > is not the practice or belief in a religion that people
> > > > object to, but rather the practice of racist preaching
> > > > that the violation of human rights that occurred to
> Blacks
> > > > in the United States really didn't happen that
> people are
> > > > objecting to.
> > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > >
> > > > *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > *To:* Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> > > > <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> > > > *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed
> here
> > > > in Moscow, I'd
> > > > be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > > others on this
> > > > list. If Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd
> > > > be suggesting
> > > > that we should all be more tolerant of each other.
> But if
> > > > one
> > > > particular faith is being singled out because of their
> > > > beliefs and some
> > > > bad blood between list members, I'm effectively
> shunned if
> > > > I suggest
> > > > that we be more tolerant of them.
> > > >
> > > > What a world.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > >
> > > > On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
> > > > > Visionaries:
> > > > >
> > > > > I know not all here would agree -- some choose to focus
> > > > on the "intolerance"
> > > > > of so-called Intoleristas rather than on the public
> > > > intolerance of bigoted
> > > > > groups that galvanized some of us to pull our complacent
> > > > heads from the sand
> > > > > -- but this eloquently and accurately reflects my thoughts:
> > > > > "We must be active architects of a better country and a
> > > > better world.
> > > > > Silence in the face of bigotry and discrimination is
> > > > agreement and consent.
> > > > > We must challenge every instance of inequality, no
> > > > matter how small it is.
> > > > > While overcoming our history's dark side is not
> > > > pleasant, it is something we
> > > > > must actively do every day."
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's the full letter that was published in today's
> > > > Moscow-Pullman Daily
> > > > > News:
> > > > >
> > > > > Letter to the Editor
> > > > > We are the answer
> > > > > Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:00 am | Updated: 8:22
> > > > am, Fri Mar 30, 2012.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heart is deeply grieved by the recent news that
> > > > Shaima Alawadi, an Iraqi
> > > > > mother of five living in California was beaten to death
> > > > by a tire iron.
> > > > > Found on her body was a note that said, "Go back to your
> > > > own country. You're
> > > > > a terrorist." This incident shows the long-reaching
> > > > effects the political
> > > > > rhetoric and rancor of the past 10 years has had on the
> > > > American psyche. A
> > > > > spark of anger and hatred spurred by our popular culture
> > > > and political
> > > > > leaders has turned into a fire within the fringe of our
> > > > country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gay youth are committing suicide due to relentless
> > > > intimidation and
> > > > > harassment. Travyon Martin was gunned down for what some
> > > > call "wearing a
> > > > > hood while black." And the murder of Alawadi. All point
> > > > to a startling
> > > > > problem. There is a dark side of American culture. While
> > > > it's underground,
> > > > > it's still there. A deep seated resentment of other
> > > > races, of people unlike
> > > > > us, lies in the hearts of many. This dark side exists
> > > > everywhere. I cannot
> > > > > count how many times I have heard racial, homophobic and
> > > > sexist slurs at
> > > > > sporting events, social gatherings, even in the work
> > > > place and classes. This
> > > > > isn't just a problem isolated to my community, but it is
> > > > ingrained within
> > > > > the very fabric of our society.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be easy for us to give up hope, hope of a
> > > > better tomorrow, a
> > > > > tomorrow without wrathful hatred and reckless violence.
> > > > But we cannot. We
> > > > > are the answer to the problem. We must be active
> > > > architects of a better
> > > > > country and a better world. Silence in the face of
> > > > bigotry and
> > > > > discrimination is agreement and consent. We must
> > > > challenge every instance of
> > > > > inequality, no matter how small it is. While overcoming
> > > > our history's dark
> > > > > side is not pleasant, it is something we must actively
> > > > do every day.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Derrick Skaug
> > > > > ASWSU Vice-President Elect
> > > > > Pullman
> > > > >
> > > > > __________
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Saundra Lund
> > > > > Moscow, ID
> > > > >
> > > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
> > > > good people to do
> > > > > nothing.
> > > > > ~ Edmund Burke
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =======================================================
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> > > > > http://www.fsr.net
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> > > > > =======================================================
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> > > > =======================================================
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> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
> > > > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > <mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > > > art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
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> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
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> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ======================================================= List
> services
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> of the
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> > > > =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > =======================================================
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> > > > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > > > http://www.fsr.net
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> > > > =======================================================
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
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