[Vision2020] "We are the answer"

Paul Rumelhart godshatter at yahoo.com
Sat Mar 31 19:32:09 PDT 2012


Hi Nick,


On 03/31/2012 06:30 PM, Gier, Nicholas wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> Thanks for the responses.  I'll address a few points and then I'm done.
>
> In my book on evangelical Christianity, I went to great pains to 
> distinguish between those theologians whom I learned to respect and 
> those that I came to disrespect.  My focus was always on 
> persons/leaders and not the tens of thousands of people in their 
> congregations or denominations.
>
> The focus of my criticism has always been on Wilson's inner circle and 
> not church members or NSA students. I assume that most of them do not 
> have the vices their leaders have.
>
> One clarification:  I was not inviting NSA faculty and students to 
> "debates," but a regional professional conference where faculty 
> present papers in a respectful way and where students are also given a 
> chance to interact and present their views as well.  I have no desire 
> to debate Wilson because I have no respect for him nor could I trust him.
>

My apologies, I couldn't remember the specifics.  I applaud you for 
inviting the NSA students and faculty to this regional professional 
conference.

>
> You admit that Ron Paul is a "crazy guy," and yet you will vote for 
> him?  Now that's irrational.
>

Am I coming across as being irrational to you?  If I was voting for him 
because he is a crazy guy, that would indeed be irrational.  My voting 
for Ron Paul for the reasons I listed is an indication that I've come to 
understand that I'm not going to get everything I want this election 
cycle, and I doubt very many others will, either.  So I've decided to 
focus on what I think is most important and the only guy who even has 
that on his radar is Ron Paul.

Paul

>
> Thanks for the dialogue,
>
> Nick
>
> > A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
> > they shall never sit in.
> >
> > -Greek proverb
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Thanks for the apology.  I don't know if you wanted include in this
> > reply.  As per usual, I forgot to press "Reply All" when I sent me
> > post below.
> >
> > Apology accepted.  Now what a response to what I said?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > > Hi Paul,
> > >
> > > Thanks for referring to me--at least indirectly--by my first name.  It
> > > makes me feel like a real person in this debate. Thanks for the
> > > third-person respect.
> > >
> > > You say that what set you off was my signing myself as "Proud
> > > Intolerista.  It's not intolerant to dislike intellectual dishonesty,
> > > ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners."  I don't tolerate
> > > intellectual dishonesty among my colleagues and students and I judge
> > > it harshly.  My former student Doug Wilson is no different.  Am I to
> > > assume that you don't dislike these vices?  I hope not.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you did not read my long post about my sincere engagement with
> > > NSA faculty and students, but let me just add that Wilson and I had
> > > friendly relations until from 1973 to 1993 when he double-crossed me
> > > on an abortion debate, but I remained cordial and respectful
> > > thereafter.  The slavery debate and his reactions to it changed
> > > everything for me and I now have no respect for him at all.  Of course
> > > he is free to say what he wants, but I will continue to condemn him as
> > > long as I have breath.
> > >
> > > In your first post on this issue you remarked that you found my
> > > actions odd for a rational person.  Similarly, I find your support for
> > > Ron Paul irrational.  With support from a GOP Congress he could really
> > > destroy our economy.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the dialogue (especially now that I personally recognized),
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas F. Gier, Professor Emeritus
> > > Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
> > > "The Palouse Pundit" on Radio Free Moscow, 92.5 FM
> > > President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFT/AFL-CIO
> > > www.idaho-aft.org/ift.htm
> > > 208-882-9212, 410 Samaritan Lane, Moscow, ID 83843
> > >
> > > "Enlightenment is man's emergence from his self-imposed immaturity.
> > > Immaturity is the inability to use one's understanding without
> > > guidance from another. This immaturity is self- imposed when its cause
> > > lies not in lack of understanding, but in lack of resolve and courage
> > > to use it without guidance from another. Sapere Aude! 'Have courage to
> > > use your own understand-ing!---that is the motto of enlightenment.
> > >
> > > --Immanuel Kant
> > >
> > > A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
> > > they shall never sit in.
> > >
> > > -Greek proverb
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Paul Rumelhart
> > > Sent: Sat 3/31/2012 11:13 AM
> > > To: Sunil Ramalingam
> > > Cc: vision 2020
> > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > >
> > >
> > > I might even join in a peaceful protest of a KKK parade, in an 
> effort to
> > > promote the idea of equality.  I would likely try to calm people 
> down if
> > > they were angered by the KKK members, and if the protest turned into
> > > anything but peaceful, I would leave it.
> > >
> > > In answer to your question, of course we have the right to judge
> > > people's views and oppose them if we don't like them.  That's what I'm
> > > doing here.  My initial post was an effort to show the "Intoleristas"
> > > that they were in fact intolerant.  It wasn't an effort to have them
> > > shut down or in any way silenced.  The statement that started this was
> > > in one of Nick's posts ("It's not intolerant to dislkike intellectual
> > > dishonesty, ordinary dishonesty, bigotry, and bad manners.")  I stated
> > > that what I've seen from the Intoleristas certainly looks like
> > > intolerance to me.  Most of the responses have either been attempts to
> > > show me that Doug Wilson is so bad that being intolerant of him is our
> > > civic duty, or a shocked reaction to the fact that I really don't care
> > > what nonsense others believe.  Oh, and a few attempts to tie my 
> lack of
> > > caring about other's personal beliefs with either character flaws, my
> > > race, gender, and economic status, or support for murder, racial
> > > violence, or the Nazi party.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On 03/31/2012 10:39 AM, Sunil Ramalingam wrote:
> > > > Paul,
> > > >
> > > > If the Klan wants to hold a parade, I defend their right to do so. I
> > > > won't try to prevent them from having their parade.
> > > >
> > > > But I will be there to protest them and their opinions, and will
> > > > support the right of others to do the same.
> > > >
> > > > People have the right to any view they want, as far as I'm 
> concerned,
> > > > and I think we agree here. What they don't have is the right to have
> > > > us all say, 'That's just dandy.' We have the right to judge their
> > > > views, and oppose them if we think they're wrong. I get the feeling
> > > > you don't think we have that right. Am I correct about that?
> > > >
> > > > Sunil
> > > >
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:31:41 -0700
> > > > From: godshatter at yahoo.com
> > > > To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
> > > > CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > > >
> > > > On 03/31/2012 10:07 AM, Art Deco wrote:
> > > >
> > > >     1. Rumelhart writes:
> > > >
> > > >     "If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed here in
> > > >     Moscow, I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > >     others on this list.  If Muslim women in Moscow were being
> > > >     harassed I'd be suggesting that we should all be more 
> tolerant of
> > > >     each other."
> > > >
> > > >     Hence, Rumelhart would also heartily agree with the same 
> amount of
> > > >     tenacity to the following:
> > > >
> > > >     "If KKK members wearing hoods were being harassed here in 
> Moscow,
> > > >     I'd be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of 
> others on
> > > >     this list.  If Aryan Nations members and other white 
> supremacists
> > > >     in Moscow were being harassed I'd be suggesting that we 
> should all
> > > >     be more tolerant of each other."
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yes, actually I would.  If one group is harassing another group 
> merely
> > > > because of their beliefs, then, yes, I would be calling for more
> > > > tolerance.  I'm not saying that would be my reaction if KKK members
> > > > were physically harassing non-whites on the streets, but it would be
> > > > my reaction if someone just simply declared that they supported the
> > > > KKK and they were getting harassed for it.
> > > >
> > > > It's really not that difficult of a concept.  It's not my purpose in
> > > > life to force everyone to think my way.  Individualism and the
> > > > sanctity of the mind are important concepts to me.  I'm only
> > > > interested in how we all interact in the physical plane.
> > > >
> > > > Just out of curiosity, if someone produced a mind control device 
> that
> > > > could be used on people to (among other things) change their core
> > > > beliefs, would you recommend we use it on KKK members?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     2.  Rumelhart also writes:
> > > >
> > > >     "But if one particular faith is being singled out because of 
> their
> > > >     beliefs and some bad blood between list members, I'm effectively
> > > >     shunned if I suggest that we be more tolerant of them."
> > > >
> > > >     So now its all about you, Rumelhart.  Who would have guessed?
> > > >     Poor, poor Rumelhart.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really care that much 
> about
> > > > it.  I'm just pointing out that a mere request for tolerance 
> can't be
> > > > tolerated on this list.  I don't know about you, but I find that
> > ironic.
> > > >
> > > > Paul  (or, if you wish, "Rumelhart")
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     w.
> > > >
> > > >     On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:24 PM, keely emerinemix
> > > > <kjajmix1 at msn.com <mailto:kjajmix1 at msn.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >         No, Paul, it is NOT "the main point of contention" that the
> > > >         Christ Church people "simply think that the historical facts
> > > >         of slavery differ from what's normally understood by
> > > >         historians" -- two of whose criticism of that view 
> caused our
> > > >         thin-skinned patriarchal bigot Wilson to seek their 
> censure by
> > > >         the Governor and the UI President.
> > > >
> > > >         Just to give you an idea of how generous Wilson is in his
> > > >         extension of the freedom of others to interfere with his
> > > >         mission . . .
> > > >
> > > >         Wilson's beliefs are made manifest in his words, and those
> > > >         words promote ideas that are dangerous to civil, stable
> > > >         society as you or I know it, and sound the death knell to
> > > >         anything resembling a flourishing, just and righteous -- or
> > > >         Christian -- society beyond that.  His proud claim to be a
> > > >         "paleo-Confederate," his buddying around with
> > > >         Neo-Confederates, his attempts to persuade his followers 
> that
> > > >         Blacks enjoyed being enslaved and his insistence that such
> > > >         slavery was Biblical -- all of this hints, minimally, at
> > > >         something less than mere errors of historical understanding.
> > > >         I'm a Bible student, not a scholar, but I can assure you 
> that
> > > >         Antebellum slavery was in no way similar to Roman or earlier
> > > >         Hebraic slaveholding, and it was not at any point 
> "Biblically
> > > >         defensible."  Given that he makes his living pulling the
> > > >         hermeneutical and political wool over other Christians' 
> eyes,
> > > >         it damned well matters.
> > > >
> > > >         It's one thing to simply err in one's grasp of history.  I'm
> > > >         probably not the person to go to on the finer details of the
> > > >         Pelopennesian Wars, for example, but my errors would be
> > > >         inconsequential and subject to the derision they deserve 
> if I
> > > >         choose to spout off on that of which I know nothing, 
> although
> > > >         if I "see differently" in the service of a dangerous agenda,
> > > >         much less call that agenda "Christian," I deserve every 
> bit of
> > > >         condemnation I incur.  I won't call you "evil" for it, but I
> > > >         struggle with how to tell you how little I care that you and
> > > >         others consider me "intolerant" for condemning Wilson 
> and his
> > > >         lackeys (a term I used in speaking to him by phone three 
> weeks
> > > >         ago, just in case you think I feel like it's OK to just 
> scurry
> > > >         around Vision 2020 rather than engage courageously with him
> > > >         personally.  Been there, done that, will do it again any 
> time
> > > >         he's up to it).
> > > >
> > > >         I laugh when, in the movie "Best In Show," the announcer
> > > >         intones that Columbus came over on the Mayflower.  Such
> > > >         ignorance is funny in reel life, sad in real life.  But I
> > > >         would urge you to really consider if all "different 
> thinking"
> > > >         on historical, social, political, and religious matters is
> > > >         benign and worthy of defense.
> > > >
> > > >         In this case, we have an indefensible malignancy of the 
> worst
> > > >         type -- that which invokes God.  Its spread won't be 
> because I
> > > >         and a few others stayed silent in its metastasizing.
> > > >
> > > >         Keely
> > > >         www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
> > > > <http://www.keely-prevailingwinds.com>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >         Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 20:51:40 -0700
> > > >         From: godshatter at yahoo.com <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > >         To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> > > > <mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > >         CC: vision2020 at moscow.com <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >
> > > >         Subject: Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >         If members of Christ Church were going around enslaving
> > > >         people, you might have a point.  As it is, they simply think
> > > >         that the historical facts of slavery differ from what's
> > > >         normally understood by historians.  I'm not comfortable
> > > >         ostracizing a group merely because of what they think about
> > > >         something.  That seems to be the main point of contention,
> > here.
> > > >
> > > >         There is a huge difference between murdering a person based
> > > >         solely on their race or culture, and thinking, well, 
> whatever
> > > >         it is that the Christ Churchers think exactly about 
> slavery in
> > > >         the Old South.  Or, more simply, between murdering 
> anyone for
> > > >         any reason and thinking thoughts others find offensive.
> > > >
> > > >         Paul
> > > >
> > > >         On 03/30/2012 07:49 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> > > >
> > > >             Paul,
> > > >             You are right that everyone needs to work on caring and
> > > >             accepting their neighbors for the people that they are.
> > > >             However, it should concern you that some people do not
> > > >             acknowledge the human atrocities that occurred with the
> > > >             slavery of a race not that long ago. A race that even
> > > >             today feels and sufferers the consequences of those
> > > >             events. It is in effect racist to not acknowledge the
> > > >             human suffering and violations that occurred to a 
> race of
> > > >             people. If we can ignore or deceive others into ignoring
> > > >             one of the greatest human rights violations in the 
> United
> > > >             States, than we can easily ignore all other human rights
> > > >             violations. Which, in effect, puts all humans, including
> > > >             yourself and everyone you care about at risk. Where one
> > > >             person's rights are ignored and violated, everyone
> > > >             else can be violated as well. That should concern 
> you. It
> > > >             is not the practice or belief in a religion that people
> > > >             object to, but rather the practice of racist preaching
> > > >             that the violation of human rights that occurred to 
> Blacks
> > > >             in the United States really didn't happen that 
> people are
> > > >             objecting to.
> > > >             Donovan Arnold
> > > >
> > > >             *From:* Paul Rumelhart <godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > > <mailto:godshatter at yahoo.com>
> > > >             *To:* Saundra Lund <v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> > > > <mailto:v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm>
> > > >             *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com 
> <mailto:vision2020 at moscow.com>
> > > >             *Sent:* Friday, March 30, 2012 6:59 PM
> > > >             *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] "We are the answer"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >             If black teenagers wearing hoods were being harassed 
> here
> > > >             in Moscow, I'd
> > > >             be suggesting that we should all be more tolerant of
> > > >             others on this
> > > >             list.  If Muslim women in Moscow were being harassed I'd
> > > >             be suggesting
> > > >             that we should all be more tolerant of each other.  
> But if
> > > >             one
> > > >             particular faith is being singled out because of their
> > > >             beliefs and some
> > > >             bad blood between list members, I'm effectively 
> shunned if
> > > >             I suggest
> > > >             that we be more tolerant of them.
> > > >
> > > >             What a world.
> > > >
> > > >             Paul
> > > >
> > > >             On 03/30/2012 02:25 PM, Saundra Lund wrote:
> > > > > Visionaries:
> > > > >
> > > > > I know not all here would agree -- some choose to focus
> > > >             on the "intolerance"
> > > > > of so-called Intoleristas rather than on the public
> > > >             intolerance of bigoted
> > > > > groups that galvanized some of us to pull our complacent
> > > >             heads from the sand
> > > > > -- but this eloquently and accurately reflects my thoughts:
> > > > > "We must be active architects of a better country and a
> > > >             better world.
> > > > > Silence in the face of bigotry and discrimination is
> > > >             agreement and consent.
> > > > > We must challenge every instance of inequality, no
> > > >             matter how small it is.
> > > > > While overcoming our history's dark side is not
> > > >             pleasant, it is something we
> > > > > must actively do every day."
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's the full letter that was published in today's
> > > >             Moscow-Pullman Daily
> > > > > News:
> > > > >
> > > > > Letter to the Editor
> > > > > We are the answer
> > > > > Posted: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:00 am | Updated: 8:22
> > > >             am, Fri Mar 30, 2012.
> > > > >
> > > > > My heart is deeply grieved by the recent news that
> > > >             Shaima Alawadi, an Iraqi
> > > > > mother of five living in California was beaten to death
> > > >             by a tire iron.
> > > > > Found on her body was a note that said, "Go back to your
> > > >             own country. You're
> > > > > a terrorist." This incident shows the long-reaching
> > > >             effects the political
> > > > > rhetoric and rancor of the past 10 years has had on the
> > > >             American psyche. A
> > > > > spark of anger and hatred spurred by our popular culture
> > > >             and political
> > > > > leaders has turned into a fire within the fringe of our
> > > >             country.
> > > > >
> > > > > Gay youth are committing suicide due to relentless
> > > >             intimidation and
> > > > > harassment. Travyon Martin was gunned down for what some
> > > >             call "wearing a
> > > > > hood while black." And the murder of Alawadi. All point
> > > >             to a startling
> > > > > problem. There is a dark side of American culture. While
> > > >             it's underground,
> > > > > it's still there. A deep seated resentment of other
> > > >             races, of people unlike
> > > > > us, lies in the hearts of many. This dark side exists
> > > >             everywhere. I cannot
> > > > > count how many times I have heard racial, homophobic and
> > > >             sexist slurs at
> > > > > sporting events, social gatherings, even in the work
> > > >             place and classes. This
> > > > > isn't just a problem isolated to my community, but it is
> > > >             ingrained within
> > > > > the very fabric of our society.
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be easy for us to give up hope, hope of a
> > > >             better tomorrow, a
> > > > > tomorrow without wrathful hatred and reckless violence.
> > > >             But we cannot. We
> > > > > are the answer to the problem. We must be active
> > > >             architects of a better
> > > > > country and a better world. Silence in the face of
> > > >             bigotry and
> > > > > discrimination is agreement and consent. We must
> > > >             challenge every instance of
> > > > > inequality, no matter how small it is. While overcoming
> > > >             our history's dark
> > > > > side is not pleasant, it is something we must actively
> > > >             do every day.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Derrick Skaug
> > > > > ASWSU Vice-President Elect
> > > > > Pullman
> > > > >
> > > > > __________
> > > > >
> > > > > Indeed.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Saundra Lund
> > > > > Moscow, ID
> > > > >
> > > > > The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for
> > > >             good people to do
> > > > > nothing.
> > > > > ~ Edmund Burke
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > =======================================================
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> > > >         =======================================================
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >     --
> > > >     Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> > > >     art.deco.studios at gmail.com <mailto:art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >   serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
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> > >
> >
> >
>
>

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