[Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

Sat Jul 21 00:17:49 PDT 2012

I don't disagree with much of what you wrote.  But if your target audience believes in God, I'm guessing that a great majority of them will simply tune you out immediately if you start with a basic stated premise of 'There is no God'.  Just my opinion - take it or leave it.

Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 10:33:49 -0700
From: art.deco.studios at gmail.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

Quick answers:

@Scott:

I can't make it any clearer.  

Beliefs in part determine actions.  

Erroneous beliefs and/or beliefs not supported by best available current evidence are much more likely to leads to harm than those that are supported by best available evidence.

For example, the belief that the Bible is the inerrant word of some alleged God has led to and continues to lead to innumerable great harms.  Besides posting the current fecal laden theology of Cultmaster Douglas Wilson urging sexual enslavement, if not sexual abuse of women, among other things there is this:

There is little I can do at my age to advance knowledge, but I can point out logical inconsistencies, invalid arguments, lack of or other problems in evidence used to support beliefs, and other epistemological problems used to support beliefs that engender what I consider harmful behaviors.

My scope of endeavor is not limited to just religion, but political, social, and scientific spheres as well.  But various religious beliefs at this time in this country cause, and continue to cause great harm -- if there was any doubt, the just completed Republican race for a presidential candidate removes any.  I choose to focus more on religion, and though it may not be apparent to you, with some effect.

That is my choice of arena, and like my choice of live style suits me.  Anyone else can choose their own arena.

Two other personal beliefs also shape my actions:

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.  --Attributed to Edmund Burke

Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.  -- Wendall Philipps

I sorry that you are offended by my chosen crusades, but your disapprobation is not likely to change my direction, but much more likely to encourage it.

@Donovan:

Supposing that you are hired to write a manual explaining how to defuse a bomb.  Given the consequences of the defuser making a fatal error would you attempt to makethe manual as clear and unambiguous as possible, or would you write a muddled, contradictory, confusing document?

If it posited that there is an all powerful, all knowing, all good God who will reward those who follow its instructions with eternal bliss, wouldn't you think that those instructions would be delivered in as clear and unambiguous manner as possible instead of the muddled, contradictory, and confusing mess called the Bible upon which there is no agreement over its meaning and application even among all the very intelligent persons who have studied it?

Why should faith be necessary instead of clarity?  To receive eternal bliss an insolvable puzzle is presented.  Does that sound like an all powerful, all knowing, all good God or the result of people were trying to understand the world at their time and who wished to control and to exercise power or others?   Doesn't that sound more like a natural development given the traits of humankind.

You pays your money, you takes your choices/chances.

@Joe:

To clarify my position again:  I do not assert that there is no God (whatever that word is variously cast to mean).  I consider all such assertions about the existence of God(s) or other supernatural objects so far made as not only unsupported by evidence, but contrary to evidence -- for example, the existence of natural evils such as tidal waves, earthquakes, etc which cause suffering and death without reference to any religious belief held by their victims.

I have some posts already made on various subjects, but today because of other obligations I may not have to respond to comments.

w.

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 8:31 AM, Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com> wrote:

Donovan,

I see what you're saying about Art but you have to keep in mind that Art has explained his reasons for believing that there is no God. He's offered versions of the problem of evil, he regularly points out inconsistencies among believers, etc. I'm inclined to agree that Art doesn't know that God does not exist. But I bet Art thinks he knows it. And if you try to challenge him on that, he'd put up a pretty good fight.

Really it comes down to your standards for warrant (supposing that knowledge is warranted true belief). Keep in mind that the standards for warrant that you impose on Art, you have to impose on yourself. Suppose you say that Art needs absolute certainty, a formal proof of God's non-existence. Then you'd need the same if you want to say that you can know that God exists. And then anecdotal reports are meaningless. You are not going to get from anecdotal reports about God's existence, reports not shared by all, to some kind of absolute certainty about God's existence. 

On the other hand, if you want to loosen the standards of warrant so that all reports of personal experiences count as evidence for knowledge you have to loosen them for Art too. Something like this is the case with perceptual beliefs: we take perceptual reports for granted; we are justified in believing them unless we have reason to deny them. If our standards of proof are so low that we may just take our religious experiences for granted, then I'd have to reevaluate Art's comments on, say, the problem of evil. One could certainly make a prima facie case for the existence of a kind of evil that is incompatible with God's existence.

I don't see a set of standards for warrant that comes out with you knowing that God exists yet Art not knowing that God does not exist (should it turn out to be true).

Joe

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Scott,

I don't blame someone for not knowing if there is or isn't a God. Unless you have had an experience there is no empirical evidence that forces you in that direction. However, I don't understand why someone would be so vocal and express it with such certainty. There is no empirical proof for their conclusion that there is no God; Absence of proof is not proof of absence. Further, belief in an existence of a God, or lack thereof, doesn't mean anything in itself to anyone but that person. We are completely powerless to either reality, God,
 or no God. This is a question that cannot be solved as a society, it has to be solved individually. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; art.deco.studios at gmail.com; viz <vision2020 at moscow.com> 

Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

Art - For someone who claims to be a non-believer, you spend a hell of a lot of time talking about God.  And to what end?  Do you really want a world of non-believers rather than the world we have now?  Human beings endure through of some of the most horrific things you couldn't possibly imagine and for a lot of them it's their faith in God that gives them strength and comfort.  Why do you think this is a bad thing?  I agree that you have pointed out some bad things that people do all in the name of God and you won't get any argument from me that those things are bad.  But it's simply not a black or white issue no matter how much that you think it is.  Religion is not always bad.  Sometimes it is extremely bad.  And I' no fan of organized religion so I'm happy to see those numbers dwindling if the charts you are posting are accurate.  To me, faith is deeply personal and I
 don't spend too much time trying to justify my ever changing belief system - I simply go with what make the most sense to me and I reserve the right to change my mind based on any new information I receive, any new experiences I live through, and even what type of a mood I'm in at any given moment.  And I honestly would not be able to tell you if I or anyone very close to me became afflicted with some nasty type of gruesome illness or injury, how that would affect my faith or lack therof.  It could go any inconceivable direction - I might start evangelizing the Glory of God and for God only knows what reason based on how such an event would alter my mind, I might be cursing God for causing so much pain so close to home, or I might say 'Hey Donovan, it turned out Art was right all along and that there is no God.'  But the bottom line for me is that I hope I'll just continue doing my best at everything
 I do and hope for the best possible outcomes, but also understand that some of this stuff like tragedies and illnesses and death are inevitable and in lots of cases just completely beyond my control.

And Donovan - some folks are non-believers because of their own experiences and thought processes.  For a person who was raped by a pedophile priest, I'd find it a perfectly reasonable response for that person to believe that there is no God.  I'm sure there are plenty of other examples I could come up with and one would be that some people just don't believe in God and don't owe any of us any justification as to why.

-Scott

Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:46:18 -0700
From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com

Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

Wayne,

You cannot find God by empirical evidence. If you could, He would be undeniably real and all would have to bow to him. They would have no choice but to concede. Faith and our existence would be meaningless. Every person's actions would all be based on fear and complete servitude. The point of existence is to believe, find and serve him, not because you have to, but because you want to. 

I do believe that many statements about God are false, just like many statements about cars are false, don't believe me, go to a used car lot. It doesn't mean that cars are not real. People exaggerate, lie, and twist everything. Why would they not do that about God too? 

"The problem is basically that most of these experiences are contradictory in some way to the others. Most are very vague, ambiguous, or unidentifiable feelings."

Of course people's experiences with God are going to be different. They are different because they are different people. Why tell Bob, Cindy, and Jack the same thing and give them the same words and experiences when you have three different people needing three different things? Do you give every person the exact same gift every year? Probably not. It doesn't make the gifts less important, but rather more important and individualized because you know each person you are giving a gift to and what they need. When all of them say they got a gift from you and someone asks each one what they got, when they got it, why they got, and how they got it, they may all give a different answer. But they will still all claim you gave them a gift. If they didn't have a physical gift to present the questioner, they could call them all liars, hallucinatory, and crazy. Only the mere numbers of people testifying you gave a gift would be the defense your actions did occur and they are not all crazy. 

I'm sure that some of the experiences that people have had were events that could be also explained scientifically. Just because someone had an encounter with God by fasting, low blood sugar, a blow to the head, brain cancer, or drugs, doesn't mean it would not also be a way of communicating with God. God would not be prevented from communicating with someone that had a chemically altered brain. God, or the person wishing to have an experience with God may feel required to do this for various reasons. 

Did you also know that dozens of people in the Catholic Church, by a process called "Slade in the spirit", can have the same spiritual experiences. Now how do you explain mass hallucinations? 30 people all experencing the exact same supernatural event by coincidence? Not likely. 

Further, just because you can explain how God does something doesn't make it any less of an act by God. If you learn how to make a cake the way your Mom does, it doesn't make it any less of a cake. You just have learned how that process is done. Maybe God isn't being mystical and not understandable, we are just to stupid and stubborn to listen and learn. 

Finally, don't you think, if God appeared to you, you would know it was him? Don't you think every atom and fiber of your being would stand at attention and know what was amongst them? Don't you think God would make it perfectly and unmistakably clear it was Him in front of you if you knew you had doubts?

If you do not believe in God, you must not also believe in free will and chance. The future movements of atoms would be determined at the moment time started by probabilities and sequences of events. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

Donovan,

In a nutshell, there are many who claim to have experiences with various and assorted God(s) and/or Goddess(es).

The problem is basically that most of these experiences are contradictory in some way to the others.  Most are very vague, ambiguous, or unidentifiable feelings.  Some of the vivid ones are most likely hallucinations -- for example, periods of fasting can produce hallucinations of various kinds, the subject of which is usually what was generally on the mind of importance of the hallucinator just prior to the hallucination.

A little Googling can lead to much evidence about the relationship of fasting and hallucinations.  A lot of it has to due
 with the acute shortage of glucose reaching parts of the brain.

I also refer you to the The Varieties of Religious Experience I mentioned earlier.

W.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

Wayne,

I think it is unfortunate that Zimmerman made those comments. No doubt they were very hurtful and not comforting to a family and community dealing with this major tragedy. However, I don't see how this reduces the possibility of the existence of a God or Gods. It would also seem to increase the possibility, as all of the people in the story, having nothing much in common, indicated they believed in a God. They all came from different backgrounds, of different races, faiths, gender, education, and age. Not many things that are not true can be found in every culture, age, race, time, nation, and both genders. If there is a lot of smoke everywhere, chances are there is fire somewhere. 

Donovan J. Arnold

From: Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
To: vision2020 at moscow.com 

Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 12:05 PM 

Subject: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

 Print     Close 

Zimmerman says he's sorry Trayvon Martin's family had to bury their child; family calls apology insincere
Published July 19, 2012
| FoxNews.com

advertisement
George Zimmerman, in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Sean Hannity, called the shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin a "tragic situation" and "the most difficult thing I'll ever go through in my life."

The volunteer neighborhood watch leader spoke about details of the shooting, said he's sorry that Martin’s mother and father had to bury their child and, when asked if he regrets anything that happened that February night, he said, "No."

"I feel that it was all God's plan, and for me to second guess it or judge it," Zimmerman shook his head.
Martin's mother and father watched the interview and appeared on "Fox & Friends" Thursday morning. His mother and father both said Zimmerman's apology appeared insincere and were troubled that the man accused of killing their son considered it all "God’s plan."

"I don't understand what he was thinking by saying it was God's plan that he murdered our child," Tracy Martin, the teen’s father said. "I really don’t understand what God he worships because it’s not the same God that I worship."

Sabrina Fulton, Martin’s mother, also appeared angered by the comment.
"Why would God have him kill an unarmed teenager?" she asked. "It makes no sense."
During the interview with Hannity, Zimmerman said he followed Martin because he looked suspicious running between houses in the rain.
Martin turned to confront Zimmerman and "asked me what my problem was" before the exchange escalated into violence, Zimmerman told Hannity in his first TV interview, conducted in an undisclosed location in Florida. The 28-year-old, with his attorney sitting by his side, said he reached into his pocket to find his phone to call 911 for a second time, and "I looked up and he punched me and broke my nose."

At one point Zimmerman said he heard Martin "telling me he’s going to kill me."
Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder for shooting and killing 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla., though he says he acted in self-defense. At first, "I didn't think I hit him," Zimmerman said, adding he only found out later that Martin had died.

Now he is in hiding and said he feels his life is in jeopardy, based on death threats he has received. He told Fox News that on the night of the shooting he had gone out to shop at Target -- "that's the last time I've been home."

The case drew intense national attention as speculation grew about the motives for the shooting, especially given that Martin was black. Zimmerman has white and Hispanic heritage.
He dismissed suggestions by some that he acted out of racism.
"I don't think it's fair that they rushed to judgment to assume that," he told Fox News.
Police initially declined to press charges, citing Florida's so-called "Stand Your Ground" law. But a special prosecutor who was called in to investigate concluded that the evidence didn't support Zimmerman's claims, and the murder charge was filed.

When asked what he would say to Martin's parents, Zimmerman said, "I would tell them that, again, I'm sorry."
"My wife and I don’t have any children," Zimmerman told Hannity. "I have nephews that I love more than life. I love them more than myself. And I know when they were born, it was a different unique bond and love that I have with them. And I love my children even though that they aren’t born yet.

"I am sorry that they buried their child. I can’t imagine what it must feel like. I pray for them daily."
Zimmerman, who is free on bond in Florida while awaiting trial, has pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder.
Hannity had spoke with Zimmerman, 28, off the record in April when he contacted Hannity against the advice of his attorneys. Both Hannity and Zimmerman denied claims that Hannity offered the murder suspect any financial assistance or payment.

The interview concluded with Zimmerman looking into the camera and saying that he wishes the night hadn't ended in Martin's death.
"I do want to tell everyone, my wife, my family, my parents, my grandmother, the Martins, the city of Sanford and America that I'm sorry that this happened," he said. "I hate to think that because of this incident, because my actions, it's polarized and divided American. And I'm truly sorry."

-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

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          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

=======================================================
List services made available by First Step Internet,
serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
              http://www.fsr.net/

          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
=======================================================

======================================================= List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com =======================================================

=======================================================

 List services made available by First Step Internet,

 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.

               http://www.fsr.net

          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com

=======================================================

-- 
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
art.deco.studios at gmail.com

=======================================================
 List services made available by First Step Internet,
 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
               http://www.fsr.net
          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
======================================================= 		 	   		  
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