[Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.

[Joe Campbell]

Donovan,

I see what you're saying about Art but you have to keep in mind that Art
has explained his reasons for believing that there is no God. He's offered
versions of the problem of evil, he regularly points out inconsistencies
among believers, etc. I'm inclined to agree that Art doesn't know that God
does not exist. But I bet Art thinks he knows it. And if you try to
challenge him on that, he'd put up a pretty good fight.

Really it comes down to your standards for warrant (supposing that
knowledge is warranted true belief). Keep in mind that the standards for
warrant that you impose on Art, you have to impose on yourself. Suppose you
say that Art needs absolute certainty, a formal proof of God's
non-existence. Then you'd need the same if you want to say that you can
know that God exists. And then anecdotal reports are meaningless. You are
not going to get from anecdotal reports about God's existence, reports not
shared by all, to some kind of absolute certainty about God's existence.

On the other hand, if you want to loosen the standards of warrant so that
all reports of personal experiences count as evidence for knowledge you
have to loosen them for Art too. Something like this is the case with
perceptual beliefs: we take perceptual reports for granted; we are
justified in believing them unless we have reason to deny them. If our
standards of proof are so low that we may just take our religious
experiences for granted, then I'd have to reevaluate Art's comments on,
say, the problem of evil. One could certainly make a prima facie case for
the existence of a kind of evil that is incompatible with God's existence.

I don't see a set of standards for warrant that comes out with you knowing
that God exists yet Art not knowing that God does not exist (should it turn
out to be true).

Joe

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:47 AM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Scott,
>
> I don't blame someone for not knowing if there is or isn't a God. Unless
> you have had an experience there is no empirical evidence that forces you
> in that direction. However, I don't understand why someone would be so
> vocal and express it with such certainty. There is no empirical proof for
> their conclusion that there is no God; Absence of proof is not proof of
> absence. Further, belief in an existence of a God, or lack
> thereof, doesn't mean anything in itself to anyone but that person. We are
> completely powerless to either reality, God, or no God. This is a question
> that cannot be solved as a society, it has to be solved individually.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
>   *From:* Scott Dredge <scooterd408 at hotmail.com>
> *To:* donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; art.deco.studios at gmail.com; viz <
> vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, July 20, 2012 2:39 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing
> testament.
>
>  Art - For someone who claims to be a non-believer, you spend a hell of a
> lot of time talking about God.  And to what end?  Do you really want a
> world of non-believers rather than the world we have now?  Human beings
> endure through of some of the most horrific things you couldn't possibly
> imagine and for a lot of them it's their faith in God that gives them
> strength and comfort.  Why do you think this is a bad thing?  I agree that
> you have pointed out some bad things that people do all in the name of God
> and you won't get any argument from me that those things are bad.  But it's
> simply not a black or white issue no matter how much that you think it is.
> Religion is not always bad.  Sometimes it is extremely bad.  And I' no fan
> of organized religion so I'm happy to see those numbers dwindling if the
> charts you are posting are accurate.  To me, faith is deeply personal and I
> don't spend too much time trying to justify my ever changing belief system
> - I simply go with what make the most sense to me and I reserve the right
> to change my mind based on any new information I receive, any new
> experiences I live through, and even what type of a mood I'm in at any
> given moment.  And I honestly would not be able to tell you if I or anyone
> very close to me became afflicted with some nasty type of gruesome illness
> or injury, how that would affect my faith or lack therof.  It could go
> any inconceivable direction - I might start evangelizing the Glory of God
> and for God only knows what reason based on how such an event would alter
> my mind, I might be cursing God for causing so much pain so close to home,
> or I might say 'Hey Donovan, it turned out Art was right all along and that
> there is no God.'  But the bottom line for me is that I hope I'll just
> continue doing my best at everything I do and hope for the best possible
> outcomes, but also understand that some of this stuff like tragedies and
> illnesses and death are inevitable and in lots of cases just completely
> beyond my control.
>
> And Donovan - some folks are non-believers because of their own
> experiences and thought processes.  For a person who was raped by a
> pedophile priest, I'd find it a perfectly reasonable response for that
> person to believe that there is no God.  I'm sure there are plenty of other
> examples I could come up with and one would be that some people just don't
> believe in God and don't owe any of us any justification as to why.
>
> -Scott
>
>  Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 21:46:18 -0700
> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
> To: art.deco.studios at gmail.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing
> testament.
>
>  Wayne,
>
> You cannot find God by empirical evidence. If you could, He would be
> undeniably real and all would have to bow to him. They would have no choice
> but to concede. Faith and our existence would be meaningless. Every
> person's actions would all be based on fear and complete servitude. The
> point of existence is to believe, find and serve him, not because you have
> to, but because you want to.
>
> I do believe that many statements about God are false, just like many
> statements about cars are false, don't believe me, go to a used car lot. It
> doesn't mean that cars are not real. People exaggerate, lie, and twist
> everything. Why would they not do that about God too?
>
> *"The problem is basically that most of these experiences are
> contradictory in some way to the others. Most are very vague, ambiguous, or
> unidentifiable feelings."*
>
> Of course people's experiences with God are going to be different. They
> are different because they are different people. Why tell Bob, Cindy, and
> Jack the same thing and give them the same words and experiences when you
> have three different people needing three different things? Do you give
> every person the exact same gift every year? Probably not. It doesn't make
> the gifts less important, but rather more important and individualized
> because you know each person you are giving a gift to and what they need.
> When all of them say they got a gift from you and someone asks each one
> what they got, when they got it, why they got, and how they got it, they
> may all give a different answer. But they will still all claim you gave
> them a gift. If they didn't have a physical gift to present the questioner,
> they could call them all liars, hallucinatory, and crazy. Only the mere
> numbers of people testifying you gave a gift would be the defense your
> actions did occur and they are not all crazy.
>
> I'm sure that some of the experiences that people have had were events
> that could be also explained scientifically. Just because someone had an
> encounter with God by fasting, low blood sugar, a blow to the head, brain
> cancer, or drugs, doesn't mean it would not also be a way of communicating
> with God. God would not be prevented from communicating with someone that
> had a chemically altered brain. God, or the person wishing to have an
> experience with God may feel required to do this for various reasons.
>
> Did you also know that dozens of people in the Catholic Church, by a
> process called "Slade in the spirit", can have the same spiritual
> experiences. Now how do you explain mass hallucinations? 30 people all
> experencing the exact same supernatural event by coincidence? Not likely.
>
> Further, just because you can explain how God does something doesn't make
> it any less of an act by God. If you learn how to make a cake the way your
> Mom does, it doesn't make it any less of a cake. You just have learned how
> that process is done. Maybe God isn't being mystical and not
> understandable, we are just to stupid and stubborn to listen and learn.
>
> Finally, don't you think, if God appeared to you, you would know it was
> him? Don't you think every atom and fiber of your being would stand at
> attention and know what was amongst them? Don't you think God would make
> it perfectly and unmistakably clear it was Him in front of you if you
> knew you had doubts?
>
> If you do not believe in God, you must not also believe in free will and
> chance. The future movements of atoms would be determined at the moment
> time started by probabilities and sequences of events.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
>
>
>   *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2012 8:09 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing
> testament.
>
> Donovan,
>
> In a nutshell, there are many who claim to have experiences with various
> and assorted God(s) and/or Goddess(es).
>
> The problem is basically that most of these experiences are contradictory
> in some way to the others.  Most are very vague, ambiguous, or
> unidentifiable feelings.  Some of the vivid ones are most likely
> hallucinations -- for example, periods of fasting can produce
> hallucinations of various kinds, the subject of which is usually what was
> generally on the mind of importance of the hallucinator just prior to the
> hallucination.
>
> A little Googling can lead to much evidence about the relationship of
> fasting and hallucinations.  A lot of it has to due with the acute shortage
> of glucose reaching parts of the brain.
>
> I also refer you to the *The Varieties of Religious Experience* I
> mentioned earlier.
>
> W.
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  Wayne,
>
> I think it is unfortunate that Zimmerman made those comments. No doubt
> they were very hurtful and not comforting to a family and community
> dealing with this major tragedy. However, I don't see how this reduces
> the possibility of the existence of a God or Gods. It would also seem to
> increase the possibility, as all of the people in the story, having
> nothing much in common, indicated they believed in a God. They all came
> from different backgrounds, of different races, faiths, gender,
> education, and age. Not many things that are not true can be found in every
> culture, age, race, time, nation, and both genders. If there is a lot of
> smoke everywhere, chances are there is fire somewhere.
>
> Donovan J. Arnold
>
>   *From:* Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *To:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 19, 2012 12:05 PM
>
> *Subject:* [Vision2020] Note to Donovan: Here's some convincing testament.
>
>     Print<http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/19/zimmerman-says-sorry-trayvon-martin-family-had-to-bury-their-child-family-calls/print#>
> Close<http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/19/zimmerman-says-sorry-trayvon-martin-family-had-to-bury-their-child-family-calls/print#>
> Zimmerman says he's sorry Trayvon Martin's family had to bury their
> child; family calls apology insincere
> Published July 19, 2012
> | FoxNews.com <http://foxnews.com/>
>  advertisement
> George Zimmerman, in an interview Wednesday with Fox News' Sean Hannity,
> called the shooting death of unarmed teen Trayvon Martin a "tragic
> situation" and "the most difficult thing I'll ever go through in my life."
> The volunteer neighborhood watch leader spoke about details of the
> shooting, said he's sorry that Martin’s mother and father had to bury their
> child and, when asked if he regrets anything that happened that February
> night, he said, "No."
> *"I feel that it was all God's plan, and for me to second guess it or
> judge it," Zimmerman shook his head.*
> *Martin's mother and father watched the interview and appeared on "Fox &
> Friends" Thursday morning. His mother and father both said Zimmerman's
> apology appeared insincere and were troubled that the man accused of
> killing their son considered it all "God’s plan."*
> *"I don't understand what he was thinking by saying it was God's plan
> that he murdered our child," Tracy Martin, the teen’s father said. "I
> really don’t understand what God he worships because it’s not the same God
> that I worship."*
> *Sabrina Fulton, Martin’s mother, also appeared angered by the comment.*
> *"Why would God have him kill an unarmed teenager?" she asked. "It makes
> no sense."*
> During the interview with Hannity, Zimmerman said he followed Martin
> because he looked suspicious running between houses in the rain.
> Martin turned to confront Zimmerman and "asked me what my problem was"
> before the exchange escalated into violence, Zimmerman told Hannity in
> his first TV interview, conducted in an undisclosed location in Florida.
> The 28-year-old, with his attorney sitting by his side, said he reached
> into his pocket to find his phone to call 911 for a second time, and "I
> looked up and he punched me and broke my nose."
> At one point Zimmerman said he heard Martin "telling me he’s going to kill
> me."
> Zimmerman is charged with second-degree murder for shooting and killing
> 17-year-old Martin on Feb. 26 in Sanford, Fla., though he says he acted in
> self-defense. At first, "I didn't think I hit him," Zimmerman said, adding
> he only found out later that Martin had died.
> Now he is in hiding and said he feels his life is in jeopardy, based on
> death threats he has received. He told Fox News that on the night of the
> shooting he had gone out to shop at Target -- "that's the last time I've
> been home."
> The case drew intense national attention as speculation grew about the
> motives for the shooting, especially given that Martin was black. Zimmerman
> has white and Hispanic heritage.
> He dismissed suggestions by some that he acted out of racism.
> "I don't think it's fair that they rushed to judgment to assume that," he
> told Fox News.
> Police initially declined to press charges, citing Florida's so-called
> "Stand Your Ground" law. But a special prosecutor who was called in to
> investigate concluded that the evidence didn't support Zimmerman's claims,
> and the murder charge was filed.
> When asked what he would say to Martin's parents, Zimmerman said, "I would
> tell them that, again, I'm sorry."
> "My wife and I don’t have any children," Zimmerman told Hannity. "I have
> nephews that I love more than life. I love them more than myself. And I
> know when they were born, it was a different unique bond and love that I
> have with them. And I love my children even though that they aren’t born
> yet.
> "I am sorry that they buried their child. I can’t imagine what it must
> feel like. I pray for them daily."
> Zimmerman, who is free on bond in Florida while awaiting trial, has
> pleaded not guilty to second-degree murder.
> Hannity had spoke with Zimmerman, 28, off the record in April when he
> contacted Hannity against the advice of his attorneys. Both Hannity and
> Zimmerman denied claims that Hannity offered the murder suspect any
> financial assistance or payment.
> The interview concluded with Zimmerman looking into the camera and saying
> that he wishes the night hadn't ended in Martin's death.
> "I do want to tell everyone, my wife, my family, my parents, my
> grandmother, the Martins, the city of Sanford and America that I'm sorry
> that this happened," he said. "I hate to think that because of this
> incident, because my actions, it's polarized and divided American. And I'm
> truly sorry."
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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