[Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves

Wed Jan 18 15:59:55 PST 2012

Ok... now we're getting devolving into the definition of 'fair'.  

"Universal health care, where all pay their fair share (mostly on the
basis of progressive taxation)..."

Which means that the more you earn, the more you are taxed... which
would immediately make it NOT FAIR.  

Jay

From: Gier, Nicholas [mailto:NGIER at uidaho.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 3:33 PM
To: Donovan Arnold; Jay Borden; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves

I'm joining this debate late but I would just like to support both
Donovan and Keeley.  The proof is in the pudding, as they say.
Universal health care, where all pay their fair share (mostly on the
basis of progressive taxation), is not only up to half the cost of the
US (now over $8,000 per person)but in many instances provides better
care. 

The most amazing recent study was comparing the British system on about
seven major illness with the Brits healthier than Americans. When Milton
Friedman bragged about the success of free market Hong Kong at the
beginning of "Free to Choose," he neglected to mention that the British
colony had universal health care, which since independence has become
even more efficient and cost effective--taking, if I remember correctly,
only 3 percent of GDP vs. the U.S.'s 17 percent.

I've written extensively on this issue and my columns are collected at
www.home.roadrunner.com/~nickgier/health.htm. 

One of the main reasons that the U.S. will decline in the 21st Century
is because of health care costs and insecurity caused by lack of
coverage.  My Greek proverb below is even more relevant today.  The
shade of good health care is paid with other people's money and
forethought.

Nick

A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know
they shall never sit in.

-Greek proverb

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Wed 1/18/2012 2:07 PM
To: Jay Borden; vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves

Jay,

There are two gaping holes in your arguments of why the universal health
care system would not work better and cost less.

The first is that it is already working better in almost every other
modern civilized country. So there is no speculation that it would
increase health care for almost everyone and would decrease costs. It
has even been wildly successful in the United States where it has been
tried, like in Florida.

Second, we are not talking about "other people's money." We are talking
about "their money". Just spending it in a more effective manner. Don't
they deserve that respect of their dollars? They would be paying
premiums, co-pays, and deductibles, and taxes.  So for those that
decided to waste the government subsidies as you claim, would also be
wasting their own money and time getting the unneeded mammograms and
prostate exams you think they would be so eager to get with new found
access to health care.

I don't completely dismiss your claim that some monies would be wasted
by some people insisting their doctors give them medications and tests
they really don't need.  There would also be people getting assistance
that would have otherwise not had health care of any kind at any time.
However, all of that so-called-waste fails to compare to the waste we
spend on treatment for illnesses and diseases that we would have
prevented and now have to pay for because they qualify for Medicaid or
end up in an emergency room. It is like the government  refusing to help
the poor with costs of oil changes but paying 90% of engine repair. It
is a horribly wasteful.

It doesn't take a genius or mathematician to understand that a 65 year
old women who becomes eligible for Medicare who hasn't seen a doctor
since she was 40 is going to cost the taxpayer much more money than if
she could access one for those 25 years and could also pay more into the
system.

Cost saving and greater access has already been established as fact
using preventive care and Universal Health Care. So you are only arguing
with the facts that Universal Health Care works better than the "pay
nothing now but 10 times more later health care system" we have now.

The only factual argument against Universal Health Care is the
philosophical one; that it is better to let people suffer from no or
limited access to medical care than to suffer the knowledge that their
premiums were paid to the government instead of to a for profit
corporation. 

Donovan Arnold

________________________________
 From: Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves

It sounds great. the math might be right, but I believe the human nature
component is wrong. human nature changes when dealing with "other
people's money". 

("Oh, if I had known you were paying for dinner, I would have ordered
something more expensive.")

Putting the word "preventative" in the name doesn't change the way
humans would react to and use it. 

If we had universal health care, it means that individuals would never
see the benefit of money saved. they would simply be given a "blank
check" in terms of their health care and how they care for themselves.
and therefore dismiss risks with personal choices for their health. 

I can tell you first-hand my experiences on how human behavior changes
as soon as fiscal responsibility to pay is shifted to the individual as
opposed to a faceless 3rd party.

It's sounds heartless to say (and even harder to defend). but in order
to have people making GOOD decisions, you have to have examples of
people making BAD DECISIONS.

Jay

From:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:56 AM
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: [Vision2020] More Proof Preventative Health Care Saves

Numbers show high cost of skipping your meds
Numbers show how skipping your meds can have serious health impact,
financial consequences

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/numbers-show-high-cost-skipping-214621515.
html

"-Every dollar spent on medication decreases total health costs to
patients, insurers and government health programs by about $10.10 for
people with high blood pressure, by $8.40 for congestive heart failure
patients, by $6.70 for diabetics and by about $3.10 for patients with
cholesterol disorders."

And what idiots would pass up $3.10 to $10.10 return on each $1
invested? The same idiots that pass up universal preventive health care.
The same idiots that believe it is better to pay $10.10 of taxpayer
dollars in medical treatment tomorrow than to a give the person the
opportunity of insurance to spend $1 on medication today. But when your
interests lie with the person who gets the $10.10, only then it becomes
clear why denying them the insurance to get the medication is the
preferred action.

Donovan Arnold                 

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