[Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant
Joe Campbell
philosopher.joe at gmail.com
Wed Jan 11 14:09:16 PST 2012
Is speaking in vague innuendos the same thing as openly offending someone?
I guess it is! I'm sorry for being offensive. That was not my intent. I was
just trying to tell you that we won't be discoursing much in the future.
And don't twist my words. I was saying that what I enjoy about the V is
being offensive. Not that I have room to be critical of others on this
matter, of course. I've been there, I'm just trying to escape.
I enjoy the V for the discussions and the chat. When I don't post, I lurk.
So I can benefit from the discussion without participating and I do. I
enjoy reading posts by Tom and Nick and Keely and Ted and Saundra and
others; even by Jay and by you. And I learn a lot, much more than I would
by reading the paper. Chatting for me is problematic, so I can only do it
in short spurts. For one thing, it requires the kind of time I don't really
have. I can't tell you how many times I've been scolded by you and others
for not "keeping up with the thread." But I have a day job that prevents me
from devoting more than a few minutes at a time to this list serve. I don't
have enough time to give the threads the attention that they need (if the
comments are correct). That is why I don't do it once school starts.
That and the fact that it is easy for me to get dragged into the mud and
hard to get myself out. And I really don't need that. Maybe you do.
Certainly once I thought that I did. But I don't.
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Donovan Arnold <
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> Sticks and stones may only break my bones, but your Christian loving words
> burn so much deeper.
>
> Do you get paid to be a hurtful asshole, Joe? Or do you just have a
> demented ways of having fun?
>
> Sorry for your personal troubles. Hope you find a healthier outlet.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> *Cc:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>; Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>;
> Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <
> vision2020 at moscow.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:32 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant
>
> First, I am going to quit again soon. This is just a temporary diversion
> to keep my mind off my troubles. Second, saying something to you and Jay is
> hardly saying it to everyone. Let's just say, you two share some of the
> same bothersome characteristics. And it ain't your political viewpoints!
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Donovan Arnold <
> donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Jeez Joe,
>
> You really ought not participate in V conversations if you're just going
> to end every post with a, "Tell it to the hand cuz the face ain't
> listing."
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
> *From:* Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
> *To:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> *Cc:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <
> thansen at moscow.com>; Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>;
> vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 2:15 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant
>
> Dude, you need to chill out. I didn't say anything like what you think I
> said. And you don't know me, so please don't try to speculate about my
> intentions. I was trying to add some clarity but in the future I'll just
> avoid you. Joe
>
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 12:32 PM, Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>wrote:
>
> No, it went down the OTHER way…****
> ** **
> Wayne Fox posted an article demonstrating Santorum’s ignorance. ****
> ** **
> Tom Hansen them posted a reply that read like something from “Song of the
> South”… linking it to bigotry.****
> ** **
> I am saying that these are not the same thing.****
> ** **
> (And now you’re blurring my point and trying to trap me even further by
> adding more words into the mix…. like “well-founded views”).****
> ** **
> Being BIGOTED doesn’t mean you’re STUPID… it means you’re IGNORANT. ****
> ** **
> Being STUPID doesn’t mean you’re BIGOTED. ****
> ** **
> If it worked like that, then we could simply draw a line on a chart and
> say, “everyone who has an IQ below 70 must be a racist, and all racists
> have an IQ below 70”.****
> ** **
> ** **
> ** **
> Jay****
> ** **
> *From:* Joe Campbell [mailto:philosopher.joe at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 12:12 PM
> *To:* Jay Borden
> *Cc:* Donovan Arnold; Tom Hansen; Art Deco; vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ** **
> I agree, Jay. But I think Tom's point went in the other direction. Being a
> bigot or racist makes one stupid or ignorant. You don't want to argue
> against that do you? Or do you think that some bigots and racists have
> intelligent, well-founded views? Joe****
> On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> wrote:****
> This is getting into a level of semantics too inane even for me…****
> ****
> My only point is that being STUPID or IGNORANT does not necessarily make
> you a bigot or racist… as Tom Hansen seemed to be alluding to in his post.
> ****
> ****
> Being called either into today’s world both takes power away from TRULY
> exposing those with these types of opinions, as well as unfairly damages
> folks in the process.****
> ****
> ****
> Jay****
> ****
> *From:* Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:26 AM
> *To:* Jay Borden; Tom Hansen; Art Deco
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> Jay,****
> ****
> If someone is stupid, you cannot change their ignorance. ****
> ****
> Donovan Arnold****
> ****
> *From:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> *To:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <
> thansen at moscow.com>; Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 11:54 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> No, I believe that ‘bigotry’ is a product of ignorance, not stupidity.****
> ****
> You can’t change stupid… but you can educate yourself to a different
> degree of understanding.****
> ****
> ****
> Jay****
> ****
> *From:* Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:32 AM
> *To:* Jay Borden; Tom Hansen; Art Deco
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> So you think bigotry is branch of intelligence, Mr. Borden?****
> ****
> Donovan Arnold****
> ****
> *From:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> *To:* Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>; Tom Hansen <
> thansen at moscow.com>; Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 9:58 AM
> *Subject:* RE: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> No.****
> ****
> Jay****
> ****
> *From:* Donovan Arnold [mailto:donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:14 AM
> *To:* Jay Borden; Tom Hansen; Art Deco
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> Isn't bigotry just a particular brand of stupidity?****
> ****
> Donovan Arnold****
> ****
> *From:* Jay Borden <jborden at datawedge.com>
> *To:* Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; Art Deco <
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com>
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 10, 2012 10:18 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> Uh… what? Don’t blur stupidity with bigotry.****
> ****
> ****
> Jay****
> ****
> *From:* vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:
> vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] *On Behalf Of *Tom Hansen
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 10, 2012 8:42 AM
> *To:* Art Deco
> *Cc:* vision2020 at moscow.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vision2020] Lets' Be Ignorant****
> ****
> Yesirree, Bubba.****
> ****
> I mean . . . Doesn't that Prezdint Obommer know that them black folk have
> a ingrown hankerin' to shine shoes at the local mall and workin' them
> fields jus' like their great granpappies did yearin' ago . . . back on
> them warm, cozy plantations.****
> ****
> They don't need no collidge no how.****
> ****
> Seeya later, Moscow.****
> ****
> Tom Hansen****
> Spokane, Washington****
> ****
> "If not us, who?****
> If not now, when?"****
> ****
> - Unknown****
>
> On Jan 10, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Art Deco <art.deco.studios at gmail.com> wrote:*
> ***
>
> *[image: Image removed by sender. Campaign Stops - Strong Opinions on the
> 2012 Election] <http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/>*****
> [image: Image removed by sender.]<http://www.nytimes.com/adx/bin/adx_click.html?type=cookie&pos=Position1B>
> ****
> January 10, 2012, 12:13 am****
> *Rick Santorum’s Anti-College Rant*****
> *By CHARLES M. BLOW<http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/author/charles-m-blow/>
> *****
> Hey, I get it: Republicans have to reject and condemn virtually everything
> President Obama proposes, no matter how noble, to satisfy their base. This
> is our political predicament.****
> Rick Santorum, however, has followed that logic out the window. In New
> Hampshire last week Santorum accused President Obama of “elitist snobbery<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c65WNw84HRY>”
> and “hubris<http://www.thedailybeast.com/videos/2012/01/07/santorum-obama-s-a-snob.html>”
> for suggesting that “under my administration, every child should go to
> college.”****
>
> Who are you? Who are you to say that every child in America go … I mean
> the hubris of this president to think that he knows what’s best for you. I
> … you know there is … I have seven kids. Maybe they’ll all go to college.
> But, if one of my kids wants to go and be an auto mechanic, good for him.
> That’s a good-paying job – using your hands and using your mind. This is
> the kind of, the kind of snobbery that we see from those who think they
> know how to run our lives. Rise up America. Defend your own freedoms.****
>
> First, the facts: I can’t find a single instance where the president has
> actually said that. The president has consistently framed the discussion<http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/us-falls-in-global-ranking-of-young-adults-who-finish-college/2011/08/22/gIQAAsU3OK_story.html>as one of making high school graduates both college- and career-ready. And
> even when speaking about learning *after* high school, he has often
> included both higher education and vocational training.****
> For instance, during a joint session of Congress in February 2009, the
> president said:****
>
> It will be the goal of this administration to ensure that every child has
> access to a complete and competitive education – from the day they are born
> to the day they begin a career.****
>
> He continued:****
>
> And so tonight, I ask every American to commit to at least one year or
> more of higher education or career training. This can be community college
> or a four-year school; vocational training or an apprenticeship.****
>
> A question, Rick: How does a person become an auto mechanic without either
> vocational training or an apprenticeship? Does he just spring forth from
> the womb knowing how to drop the transmission on a Dodge Durango? I didn’t
> think so. Moving right along …****
> The president has called for the reauthorization of<http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/president-obama-calls-new-steps-prepare-america-s-children-success-college-and-care>the Elementary and Secondary Education Act and challenged states to
> “develop standards and assessments that will help America’s children rise
> to the challenge of graduating from high school prepared for college and
> the workplace.”****
> The president has also unveiled plans<http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=106636657&m=106658845>to help more students graduate from community college, a main tenet of his
> education agenda, saying,****
>
> We know that in the coming years, jobs requiring at least an associate
> degree are projected to grow twice as fast as jobs requiring no college
> experience. We will not fill those jobs or even keep those jobs here in
> America without the training offered by community colleges.****
>
> Now that we’ve established some facts, let’s turn to the larger question:
> Is it a bad thing to want more students to be prepared for college, to have
> access to college and to in fact attend college? Of course not.****
> As The Washington Post pointed out
> <http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/us-falls-in-global-ranking-of-young-adults-who-finish-college/2011/08/22/gIQAAsU3OK_story.html>in
> September, an Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development report
> released that month found that****
>
> America’s global rank in college completion among young adults is
> slipping, according to a report released Tuesday, signaling that the higher
> education ambitions of other nations are progressing at a swifter pace.***
> *
>
> The Post continued:****
>
> Instead of gaining ground, the United States has fallen from 12th to 16thin the share of adults age 25 to 34 holding degrees, according to the
> report from the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. It
> trails global leaders South Korea, Canada and Japan and is mired in the
> middle of the pack among developed nations.****
> The stagnant U.S. performance on this key international benchmark reflects
> at least two trends: the rapid expansion of college attendance in Asia and
> Europe, and the continuing emphasis on four-year degrees in the United
> States while other nations focus far more on one- and two-year professional
> credentials.****
>
> Sounds to me like the president’s plan is designed to address this. But
> then again, I’m applying regular logic, not “I-hate-Obama,
> stick-my-fingers-in-my-ears, say ‘la-la-la-la-la’ ” logic.****
> An even more disturbing finding in the O.E.C.D report is how poorly
> Americans perform in the job market without a college degree. Among
> Americans aged 18 to 64 whose highest level of education is “upper
> secondary and post-secondary non-tertiary” — the equivalent of high school
> and perhaps some vocational or community college training — the percentage
> of the employed is among the lowest of all O.E.C.D. countries. We rank 30
> th out of 34 countries, just above Greece, Hungary, Poland and Turkey.****
> Oh, the hubris and elitist snobbery of wanting a more educated, more
> highly employed work force.****
>
>
> --
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> art.deco.studios at gmail.com****
>
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> ****
> ****
>
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> ** **
>
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>
>
>
>
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