[Vision2020] Say What?
Tom Hansen
thansen at moscow.com
Wed Jan 11 08:58:16 PST 2012
Mr. Arnold -
Neither of us said "everyone". I merely quoted you.
I have avoided discussing the following out of a desire for privacy, but . . .
That picture that I posted on December 17th . . ,
http://www.TomandRodna.com/Photos/SHMC_ICU_121711.jpg
. . . is of an aquarium located in the ICU waiting room at Sacred Heart Medical Center . . . where I have been every day since December 15th (and continue to be) when my wife was admitted with severe respiratory problems after being airlifted from Gritman.
Over the course of the past four weeks I have developed acquaintance friendships with others in the waiting room, like . . .
. . . a woman who had to cash in her husband's life insurance to help pay the medical bills, while he lays in a bed not fifty feet down the hallway with a severe lung infection, or . . .
. . . the mother whose son is ever-so-slowly developing brain activity on the left side of his brain, after a horrible car accident, wondering how her son's medical bills will get paid after having been laid off a couple months ago, and . . .
. . . as I sit here, right now, listening to a family discussing who is going to contribute how much in assisting a relative pay medical bills related to a 6-week ICU stay, who is slowly on the mend.
So . . . You see, Mr. Arnold, there are real people with real problems that can seriously appreciate the availability of such health insurance.
One last thing: Please don't feed me your empty sympathy for my wife. Just like your comments against health insurance, it sickens me.
It isn't sympathy I, and these people in the ICU waiting room, need as much as I need support, such as I have been receiving from some very dear friends both on and off the list., and they (these fine people in the waiting room) health insurance they so humanely require.
Sidebar to Joe Campbell: That drug to which you were referring in another post is Propofol. The doctors here at SHMC refer to it as "Milk of Amnesia". A six-ounce bottle of Propofol keeps my wife heavily sedated for two days at a time.
Now, if you will excuse me . . .
Seeya later, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Spokane, Washington
"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"
- Unknown
On Jan 11, 2012, at 7:05 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Tom,
>
> My claim was that there are millions of Americans that are better off without insurance. I didn't say everyone was. What is bullshit, Mr. Hansen, is thinking that Health Insurance means proper and quality health care, or any real care at all.
>
> If you think every person is better off giving what little money they have to increase the bottom line of some greedy insurance company instead of spending it on the care they need that is your right to believe that, but my experience is that it is wrong.
>
> You again, like many others, confuse health insurance with health care. They are not the same thing. And that flawed thinking is exactly why we have people that don't get the health care they need.
>
> As a person who works with the elderly, disabled, sick and injured, I am sure I know more people than you ever will with all kinds of insurance and without. I have taken care of many rich elderly ladies that screamed in the night and all day that had more insurance than you or I could imagine ever having.
>
> If you only knew how many people lost everything and were denied care that had insurance and paid it all their life, you wouldn't be sitting on the insurance company's side of the argument. You would be throwing punches if you were in the same room as I was when military men, injured on duty, with private insurance and government insurance, were turned away from care because their insurance didn't pay enough or cover what they needed. While having proper health care means everything, having health insurance doesn't mean anything.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
> From: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>
> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>; "Gier, Nicholas" <NGIER at uidaho.edu>; keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 7:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
>
> Donovan Arnold states:
>
> "The difference between me and you, is that I have a better understanding of the reality of the health care system than you do and that Obamacare will not solve any problems.
>
> Millions of people are in fact better off without health insurance, such as me. If I were to buy health insurance, it would cost me $450 a month because of an injury that I incurred at work. If forced to pay $450, I will have to live in a homeless shelter and I still won't have health care because I cannot afford the $10,000 deductible that I must also pay before the insurance kicks in."
>
> And somehow you feel that Obamacare is worse than the scenario you outline above???
>
> Another thing: What health insurance provider, on planet Earth, charges a $10,000 deductible???
>
> Concerning your claim that "Millions of people are in fact better off without health insurance . . . " . . . BULL SH*T!!! I challenge you, Donovan Arnold, to speak to some family members of hospital patients (those without health insurance) for a dose of serious reality, ok?
>
> Seeya later, Moscow.
>
> Tom Hansen
> Spokane, Washington
>
> "If not us, who?
> If not now, when?"
>
> - Unknown
>
> On Jan 11, 2012, at 6:14 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Joe,
>>
>> I'm not trying to create a Utopian society. The difference between me and you, is that I have a better understanding of the reality of the health care system than you do and that Obamacare will not solve any problems.
>>
>> Millions of people are in fact better off without health insurance, such as me. If I were to buy health insurance, it would cost me $450 a month because of an injury that I incurred at work. If forced to pay $450, I will have to live in a homeless shelter and I still won't have health care because I cannot afford the $10,000 deductible that I must also pay before the insurance kicks in. One the other hand, I can get all kinds of medical help and pay my medical bills if I budget $200 a month, which is what I do. I have catastrophic insurance, which is only $80 a month.
>>
>> So if I am forced to buy insurance, I will have to fork out $450, plus $200 to pay my medical bills which the insurance will not pay. That means I have to pay $650 instead of $280. That means Obamacare doesn't help me at all, you see. I also cannot afford to pay $650 a month for medical on what I make.
>>
>> If the government wants to tax me an extra $100-$300 a month and take care of my health costs like most western civilizations and Europe do, great--I am for that. But just mandating that I buy $450 of insurance which does nothing for me, instead of allowing me to spend my money on what I need, it will destroy me financially and ruin my health.
>>
>> And linking health insurance to work is the dumbest thing to do ever with health care. When you are sick and injured you cannot work.
>>
>> Donovan Arnold
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Joe Campbell <philosopher.joe at gmail.com>
>> To: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: "Gier, Nicholas" <NGIER at uidaho.edu>; keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; "thansen at moscow.com" <thansen at moscow.com>; "vision2020 at moscow.com" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2012 4:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>
>> It does matter. It matters to those in the US who are not insured very much.
>>
>> We both care about healthcare for the poor. The difference is that you want to create some Utopian system first and then do something about it. I'd rather do the best we can with the flawed system that we have. Not because I like the flawed system but because I'm a realist, not an idealist.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 11, 2012, at 3:06 AM, Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Keely,
>>>
>>> The problem is that insurance companies are about making as big of a return for stock holders as possible, not getting people well. Inviting greedy corporate lawyers and stockbrokers into the health care system is like letting a pack of hungry wolves loose in the operating room. The two just don't go together in an combination that results in a good outcome.
>>>
>>> US health care policy today is about maximizing return of investment not maximizing the health of people. Until that goal changes, it doesn't matter how you mix and match insurance, profit, and care.
>>>
>>> Donovan Arnold
>>>
>>> From: "Gier, Nicholas" <NGIER at uidaho.edu>
>>> To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>; donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 4:58 PM
>>> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>>
>>> Nice insights, Keeley. One more reason to should be a Town Crier.
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
>>>
>>> -Greek proverb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com on behalf of keely emerinemix
>>> Sent: Tue 1/10/2012 2:05 PM
>>> To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com; Contact - thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>>
>>>
>>> One problem with "firing" your health insurer is that, until Obamacare, any gap between that entity's coverage and the replacement coverage you find can automatically result in either your non-acceptance or your having to pay a higher premium for having come to the new company from "uninsured" status. And if you can find something you can afford among those companies that will accept you, you might find yourself delaying treatment for the initial medical problem because of an inability to afford the premiums or the deductibles and other out-of-pocket expenses.
>>>
>>> If I don't like my local Conoco station, I can easily "fire" them and go to Cenex. But only someone blissfully out of touch or callously unaffected would presume that "firing" one's health insurer is even possible at times, much less a simple case of "voting with your wallet."
>>>
>>> Keely
>>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>>>
>>>
>>> Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 20:31:02 -0800
>>> From: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>> To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; thansen at moscow.com; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>>
>>> Bad choice of words for Romney. I think what he meant was the he liked having the authority to decide who provides him services for health care. I have to agree, that it would be horrible not be able to have the power to dismiss a service provider that you don't like. Any football fan that has had Time Warner or Dish Network as a television provider would have to agree. Donovan Arnold
>>> From: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>
>>> To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>; vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> Sent: Monday, January 9, 2012 8:36 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Besides the cringeworthiness of Romney's words is the reality that "firing" one's health insurance company virtually guarantees great difficulty in finding another . . .
>>>
>>> Keely
>>> www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
>>>
>>>
>>> > From: thansen at moscow.com
>>> > Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:58:26 -0800
>>> > To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> > Subject: [Vision2020] Say What?
>>> >
>>> > "I want individuals to have their own insurance. That means the insurance company will have an incentive to keep you healthy. It also means if you don't like what they do, you can fire them. I like being able to fire people that provide services to me."
>>> >
>>> > - Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney (January 9,
>>> 2012)
>>> >
>>> > Video courtesy of the Associated Press.
>>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBfWB64iHAs
>>> >
>>> > --------------------
>>> >
>>> > This video is going to get lots of mileage over the next few weeks.
>>> >
>>> > Seeya later, Moscow.
>>> >
>>> > Tom Hansen
>>> > Spokane, Washington
>>> >
>>> > "If not us, who?
>>> > If not now, when?"
>>> >
>>> > - Unknown
>>> >
>>> > =======================================================
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>>> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
>>> > http://www.fsr.net
>>> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> > =======================================================
>>>
>>>
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>>> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
>>> =======================================================
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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