[Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Mon Jan 2 11:57:39 PST 2012
Sunil,
Because of our difference in values, experience, and perspectives on self-defense and likely on the question of "When is intervention into another sovereign state's affairs justified?" we are unlikely to reach any agreement on any candidate's views on foreign policy.
We agree on some internal matters such as the extreme importance of due process and civil rights. I agree that on the former, Obama has been a real disappointment. As for Paul, I said previously, he is for only those rights he thinks we should have.
w.
From: Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, January 02, 2012 9:42 AM
To: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Waiyne,
I said 'currently' because right now, Obama would end up leaving gay marriage to the states, as he does not yet support it. Once he does (as I expect him to eventually) then his position will be different.
Ron Paul's position is bigoted, I think. Obama's is cowardly, as he's still afraid to lose bigots' votes. The 'I support civil unions but not gay marriage' position is a silly split-the-baby attempt to placate both sides. Gay rights is the only place I see Obama behaving like a progressive, and I think he and his team have decided it won't hurt him; I think it's a bone they've decided they can throw the left.
But here we are, again discussing anything but Obama's foreign policies again.
Sunil
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From: deco at moscow.com
To: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 23:00:45 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Their positions are not quite the same.
http://www.thepoliticalguide.com/Profiles/House/Texas/Ron_Paul/Views/Gay_Marriage/
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2011/12/obama-the-courts-and-gay-marriage.html
Paul's mind is made up.
Obama says his is still open.
w.
From: Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2012 7:30 PM
Cc: vision 2020
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Neither of us were talking about DADT, we were talking about their positions on gay marriage, and as far as I know, Obama is not currently in favor of gay marriage. He has come out against the Defense of Marriage Act, but that would simply leave things to each state, which I believe is Paul's position.
Sunil
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CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
From: thansen at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:54:18 -0800
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Obama repealed "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".
Ron Paul stated more than once, during the debates, that he would not repeal DADT.
Seeya later, Moscow.
Tom Hansen
Spokane, Washington
"If not us, who?
If not now, when?"
- Unknown
On Jan 1, 2012, at 5:47 PM, Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com> wrote:
So currently is his position any different than Obama's? Is the only difference that Obama's position is 'evolving,' perhaps with the benefit of polling?
Sunil
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From: deco at moscow.com
To: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2012 14:25:02 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Kelly,
Here in a nutshell is Ron Paul's position on gay marriage:
As a lifelong Christian, he is personally against it. He is against any federal legislation on this issue, but for allowing each state to decide the issue themselves.
Needless to say, besides most likely leading to the denial of gays to marry in many states, the legal morasses created by allowing gay marriage in some states and not allowing it or not recognizing it in other states are horrifying to contemplate.
w.
From: keely emerinemix
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 10:14 PM
To: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Being a racist doesn't mean he's wrong on these issues, Sunil -- but it means that, as Ron Paul (if he is, in fact, a racist), he should be applauded for those views he holds that are correct and challenged on any that you, I, or anyone else disagrees with. It doesn't mean he ought to run for office, or that we ought to vote for him.
There are plenty of people, I imagine, who are right about the issues you mention below who aren't bigots, and who -- perhaps more germane to the conversation -- wouldn't gut the social services that make this country not only habitable (imperfect and imperfectly delivered as they are), but moral. I think you and I see the defense/national security issues fairly similarly, and we likely also applaud Paul's views on legalizing marijuana, gay marriage, and maybe a couple of other issues. Nonetheless, even those areas on which I agree with Paul -- the ones I just mentioned and the ones you did -- aren't enough for me either to vote for him, or overlook what at least the most fervent Paul supporter would acknowledge was carelessness in letting bigots crank out his newsletter.
The cumulative effect of Paul's economic and some of his social policies will harm more people -- people already marginalized and suffering -- than the hundreds of thousands this and the previous war-courting administrations have. Do I take any comfort in that?
No. Not at all. But I have to vote for the man who seems to have more, better answers than the one who has one or two good ones. And I can't afford to combine the worst of both Obama and Paul by risking the horror of, say, a Perry or Bachmann presidency.
Thanks, Sunil.
Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
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From: sunilramalingam at hotmail.com
CC: vision2020 at moscow.com
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:12:36 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Let's for one moment assume that Paul is a racist. I'm not saying he is, just assume he is so that issue doesn't need to be discussed for a minute.
Is he wrong on ending our wars? Is he wrong on cutting the defense budget? Is he wrong about the Patriot Act? Is he wrong about the Executive Branch seizing powers it should not have?
What say you, Keely, Wayne, Saundra, Tom?
Sunil
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Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:20:01 -0800
From: godshatter at yahoo.com
To: deco at moscow.com
CC: Vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
He has admitted to putting out an investment newsletter that (as far as I can tell) was not one of the newsletters that printed the racist comments. It had all sorts of conspiracy theories about what will happen to people trying to deal in large amounts of cash, most of which have come true - just not in the way he thought. Try taking a large pile of cash through airport security and see how well that goes.
Another distraction attempt, supposedly a smoking gun, apparently succeeds in its goals. Or maybe this is just jumping on the bandwagon, since it is the Daily Mail, after all.
Paul
On 12/31/2011 04:44 PM, Art Deco wrote:
See:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2078217/Ron-Paul-racist-homophobic-newsletters-Video-taking-credit.html
Scroll down to see the videos of Paul Himself acknowledging the letters, etc.
All javascript scripts must be allowed in order to see the whole article including the videos.
w.
From: Paul Rumelhart
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2011 3:52 PM
To: keely emerinemix
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Does it matter whether or not the allegations are true? Or do we just call them out anyway?
Here is an article from CBS News about the newsletters: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57345702-503544/ron-paul-disavows-racist-newsletters-under-his-name/
The article contains a quote by Ron Paul on the issue:
"When I was out of Congress and practicing medicine full-time, a newsletter was published under my name that I did not edit. Several writers contributed to the product," he said. "For over a decade, I have publicly taken moral responsibility for not paying closer attention to what went out under my name."
I'd hate to see the man dragged over the coals for something he might not have deserved solely because (for example) Jon Huntsman is losing to Ron Paul in New Hampshire and has staked his campaign on a strong showing there.
I got that last bit from this article: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57349712-503544/huntsman-calls-ron-paul-unelectable-because-of-racist-newsletters/
And once again, this is only out there in order to distract us. These people could care less if it's even true. It's just convenient.
Paul
On 12/31/2011 02:44 PM, keely emerinemix wrote:
I don't think you're defending racism, racist behavior, or even the wrongness of screaming "He's a racist!" at the slightest apparent provocation. That said, I think it's imperative that legitimate indications that an individual's views on race/gender/class/civil rights/culture are bigoted be called out, examined, and condemned -- and I believe that the text of Ron Paul's newsletters are an example.
Keely
www.keely-prevailingwinds.com
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Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: On Ron Paul and Racism
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:41:13 -0800
From: jborden at datawedge.com
To: kjajmix1 at msn.com; v2020 at ssl1.fastmail.fm; vision2020 at moscow.com
I’m not *defending* racism, I’m commenting on the mere finger-pointing and accusations being so charged that it’s a nuclear weapon in a political arsenal.
It’s used as a tool for distraction, and hence, theatrics. (And, unless I missed the mark, perhaps Mr. Rumelhart’s point).
Insert story of “crying wolf”.
Jay
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